KW and SOX fans are to blame for this mess..

[southsider2k5]

You sound like one of the sensationalizing sports columnists in this town. You truly think the Sox FANS have any amount of blame in this mess?

 

Please.

 

Sox fans have shown over and over again that they will support a quality product. Not a big payroll team masquerading as a quality product ... not clever advertisements trying to dupe us into thinking that we're seeing a quality product ... but a true quality professional baseball team (and organization). When THAT is on the field, Sox fans come out and pay to support the team.

 

This shouldn't surprise ownership. They're well aware that Sox fans support quality and vote with their wallets against mediocrity and worse. It's been this way in this town forever. Hearing KW whine about having no money (in those years when his allowance is cut) is so tiresome. You have no money Kenny because your performance hasn't brought in the revenue, which increases your allowance. Instead of whining about it, do something about the product on the field. And if THAT is beyond you, then ownership needs to bring someone else in who can do that job.

 

Sox fans are to BLAME? Wow, you've really bought yourself a bill of goods, dude.

 

Eh, Sox fans are major fair weather fans. Dress it up how you like, but it is true.

[Milkman delivers]

Rios was known as a dog.

How many teams acquire pitchers when they are on the DL at the time?

Dunn ... I blame KW cause it didn't work out. Yes he deserves the blame, just like Pritchard deserved the blame for drafting Oden when ALL of basketball said to take Oden.

That signing of the bum Dunn cost Sox fans Mark Buehrle. FIRE KENNY!

 

For what it's worth, I went back through the thread about acquiring Peavy back in 2009. You voiced no opposition to it or the money owed to him. Your only concern was who was going to start in place of Clayton Richard for the rest of the season.

[RockRaines]

You need to post more, dude. You have it perfect.

I think the best part of his post was highlighting the organization. Its easy to get behind an org that seemingly does things the right way, at this point the Sox dont really fit into that category.

[Milkman delivers]

I think the best part of his post was highlighting the organization. Its easy to get behind an org that seemingly does things the right way, at this point the Sox dont really fit into that category.

 

Been that way for years, though. The last time I felt the Sox were on the right track was about the middle of the 2006 season. I completely agreed with the moves they made the previous offseason in acquiring Thome and Vazquez, etc.

[RockRaines]

Been that way for years, though. The last time I felt the Sox were on the right track was about the middle of the 2006 season. I completely agreed with the moves they made the previous offseason in acquiring Thome and Vazquez, etc.

I think its taken some casual fans and even some diehards like me to start to realize that this organization has no clear direction, no "Sox way", and piss poor leadership pushing it along.

[Milkman delivers]

I think its taken some casual fans and even some diehards like me to start to realize that this organization has no clear direction, no "Sox way", and piss poor leadership pushing it along.

 

Agreed.

[kitekrazy]

I think its taken some casual fans and even some diehards like me to start to realize that this organization has no clear direction, no "Sox way", and piss poor leadership pushing it along.

 

Maybe that is the Sox way.

 

[hi8is]

Not a big payroll team masquerading as a quality product ... not clever advertisements trying to dupe us into thinking that we're seeing a quality product ... but a true quality professional baseball team (and organization).

I think that last season was not upper management masquerading any product - but rather, just ending up on the short side of the stick. It didn't end up being a true quality professional baseball team in reality but on paper it sure looked nice.

 

Who would have predicted that ALL of the following would have taken place:

1.) Beckham will continue to REGRESS instead of progressing.

2.) Dunn for the first time in - what - 8 years won't hit more that - what - 38 home runs?

3.) Not only will Dunn's power disappear - his ability to do ANYTHING even RELATIVELY well will completely vanish.

4.) Contrary to reports that Peavy will be ready after the all-star break, his return will bring scarce success while on a limited pitch count... a pitch count that won't be upheld.

5.) Juan Pierre's ability to catch a baseball will be void in the months of April and May.

6.) Juan Pierre's ability to hit a baseball will be void in the months of April and May.

7.) Juan Pierre's ability to steal a base will be void in the months of April and May.

8.) Matt Thornton will be historically bad as a closer and will be given far to many chances to succeed before he is replaced.

9.) Alex Rios will not improve upon his numbers last year and will actually produce his worst career year.

10.) John Danks and Gavin Floyd will regress slightly

11.) At times, for prolonged periods, the offense will be completely anemic.

12.) Chris Sale will have nearly a 5.5 ERA between April and May.

 

The management put a good team together - on paper. Many of these things couldn't have been foreseen... two important things thou:

 

a.) fans have every right to be upset that the players didn't preform and SHOULD show up to support a quality product - when it's on the field next, proving itself.

b.) milkman is right - post more often.

 

[CyAcosta41]

I think that last season was not upper management masquerading any product - but rather, just ending up on the short side of the stick. It didn't end up being a true quality professional baseball team in reality but on paper it sure looked nice.

 

Who would have predicted that ALL of the following would have taken place:

 

. . .

 

 

The management put a good team together - on paper. Many of these things couldn't have been foreseen... two important things thou:

 

a.) fans have every right to be upset that the players didn't preform and SHOULD show up to support a quality product - when it's on the field next, proving itself.

b.) milkman is right - post more often.

 

Thanks to you and many for the kind words. I've had flurries of posting on the various Sox boards for many, many years. Just not sustainable for me. I know myself and I've learned to use these sources primarily for the info/rumor fix. I've long enjoyed THIS board most of all because of the quality of the baseball thought AND the writing/humor.

 

As to your points Hi, I agree somewhat that 2011 became almost the perfect storm of individually and even epically poor performances by historically predictable players which dashed some high hopes virtually from the season's outset. You'll never hear me bashing KW or any GM for a well-considered trade or move which turns out to be horrendous (in hindsight) because of later factors that few if any could have reasonably predicted. Adam Dunn's 2011 was pathetic beyond belief, especially coming from a seemingly healthy ballplayer whose back of the baseball card showed almost eerie year-to-year consistency. Many saw SOME warning signs that he might decline a bit (the whole "never DH'd before thing was a personal concern"), and I personally HATE that style of all-or-nothing slugger, but if you opted to have that style of player in your lineup, then Dunn SEEMED as safe and predictable a bet as any signing in the history of free agents. Turned out a bit differently, but you can't convince me that ANY GM in baseball could have guessed THAT.

 

But here's the thing, yeah, everything that could go wrong did go wrong, horribly wrong, but I NEVER saw that team as constructed as some juggernaut big-payroll team. Rather, I saw it as a flawed team that COULD do some real damage if everything went right, but it was a big payroll team because of many poor past decisions and the need to spend money to band-aid the product.

 

Don't want to write a novel here (although sure I will), but I definitely saw it as a masquerade -- "look what we're giving you -- a high payroll," when in fact any analysis at all saw a lot of overpaid players whose declining (or overrated) skillsets made for a poorly constructed TEAM. Some examples:

 

*Juan Pierre -- Don't get me started. He CAN do some things, but the guy hasn't been a high quality and EVERYDAY leadoff hitter for years. Yet, infuriatingly, stubborn Ozzie trotted the guy out there every damned day, resting the other starters (but you'd always see Pierre), so like Jaime Navarro years ago as a starter, he wasn't only (relatively) awful, he was durable in being awful. Yuck to the max. An A.L. leadoff guy with no power, tremendously overrated stolen base ability (at this point in his career), and horrendous outfield tools (other than pure ability to get to a ball) was simply a big, big problem (exacerbated by a manager who saw things in him that virtually no one else did).

 

*Dunn -- talked about him above, but not only don't I like his style for this team (all of our former sluggers had been hitters with power, rather than sluggers -- e.g., Dick Allen, the Big Skirt, Maggs, modern-day Konerko, and even TCQ), Dunn and his $$$ should never have been necessary had KW not botched the whole Gentleman Jim Thome thing (who on his worst day is twice the hitter that Dunn is). So the team has to then band-aid to get Dunn, we unexpectedly get epic fail out of a former slugging robot, but Ozzie again exacerbates things by not only batting Dunn third (even against lefties ... who in their right mind would EVER bat Adam Dunn third against anybody?), but doing it over and over again. I won't go so far as to say Ozzie threw games to make a point about Kenny's acquisitions, but stubborn Ozzie continually hurt the team the last few years by trying to prove that HE is the smartest guy in the room and going against basic statistics and other prevailing baseball opinion.

 

*Rios -- All I can say about Rios is that the way he underperforms his tools is infuriating, embarrassing, and upsetting. So sure, we have a big payroll, but I could never think we had any sort of juggernaut when we have to rely on a guy like that as a major cog. In my opinion, Rios above all others is the one that KW should take the heat for. Again, we weren't ever a top team, we were just being told we had a top team.

 

*Peavy -- Loved the aggressiveness of going out and getting an ace, but for an organization historically reluctant to take big chances on pitching, this was a head-scratcher to me (and yes, even at the time). Petco splits, already existing concerns about how his max-effort and somewhat unsound delivery would age, and how his style would generally translate to the stronger A.L. lineups made many people wonder whether THIS was the ace you really wanted to pay the long-term big-bucks for. Hey, allegedly part of the thinking for letting Hudson go for Jackson was scouting info that suggested Hudson and his style would never amount to "all that much" in the A.L. Debatable, but fine, that's a position. But you can't have it both ways. Because many said the exact same thing in the opposite direction about Peavy. N.L. Petco Peavy might have been worth X, but not the Peavy that we'd be getting (and his later injuries have absolutely nothing to do with my analysis).

 

But all the player overrating aside, my real problem with EVER having any confidence in last year's product was the continuing dysfunction between our goofball manager and our swell-headed GM (and more broadly, our ownership that allowed all of this dysfunction to persist). Lots of examples out there about creative tensions between teammates that make the whole more than the sum of the parts, but 3-4 years of this nonsense already made it clear that THIS wasn't THAT. We had leadership at every level that was actually HURTING the overall team. That sabotaged the team from the start and made it as unlikeable a team, and product, as any Sox team I can remember (and 10-12 of my Sox fanatic friends felt exactly the same way).

 

All that said, Ozzie leaving was necessary. And I can't imagine how ownership would possibly want the architect to supervise the fix. My hope is that some soul-searching may result in a changed approach (loved Kenny in his early years; very skeptical about change given the Santos deal, but maintaining some hope by seemingly being very patient about Danks, Floyd, Thornton, and Quentin).

 

Hey, no team is perfect -- even the true juggernauts. I simply saw so many problems with this team from the get-go that I wasn't excited from 2011 Day 1 (hopeful, yes; but not excited) and the inability of management to stop the free-fall made it a simply gut-wrenching baseball year.

[southsider2k5]

I wonder how much of the Peavy trade was the result of Buehrle talking about retirement?

[VictoryMC98]

I think its taken some casual fans and even some diehards like me to start to realize that this organization has no clear direction, no "Sox way", and piss poor leadership pushing it along.

 

100% Agreed. And this starts all the way at the top.. with JR.

[VictoryMC98]

I wonder how much of the Peavy trade was the result of Buehrle talking about retirement?

 

IMO KW, was looking to try an hit a HR.. and ended up Striking out. I don't fault him for that trade....

 

If Peavy was healthy, wins 17-20 a year.. he looks like a genius.

[fathom]

IMO KW, was looking to try an hit a HR.. and ended up Striking out. I don't fault him for that trade....

 

If Peavy was healthy, wins 17-20 a year.. he looks like a genius.

 

That's so not necessarily true. Peavy outside of San Diego as a big risk, and a lot of people had concerns.

[southsider2k5]

IMO KW, was looking to try an hit a HR.. and ended up Striking out. I don't fault him for that trade....

 

If Peavy was healthy, wins 17-20 a year.. he looks like a genius.

 

And we gave up nothing to get him.

[Jordan4life_2007]

And we gave up nothing to get him.

 

That's because the Padres didn't want anything. They wanted to get out of that contract. KW took the bait. And here we are.

[LittleHurt05]

And we gave up nothing to get him.

 

Except for payroll space, which has become valuable as the team has underachieved.

[NorthSideSox72]

I'm in the camp that doesn't fault KW for Dunn, or Peavy. But he sure as heck took a big risk on Rios that had possible disaster written all over it, that's clearly on him.

 

As for not having a direction, that is what it looks like. But there may very well be a new direction, we just haven't seen what it is yet. I'm not ready to assume he's not got a decent plan, until the offseason is over.

 

[VictoryMC98]

Except for payroll space, which has become valuable as the team has underachieved.

 

Even more reason to have a farm system that produces MLB talent. The Sox are not the Yankees/Red Sox/Cubs and can't spend for their mistakes.

Edited December 9, 2011 by VictoryMC98

[southsider2k5]

I'm in the camp that doesn't fault KW for Dunn, or Peavy. But he sure as heck took a big risk on Rios that had possible disaster written all over it, that's clearly on him.

 

As for not having a direction, that is what it looks like. But there may very well be a new direction, we just haven't seen what it is yet. I'm not ready to assume he's not got a decent plan, until the offseason is over.

 

The funny thing is that in theory, Theo would have agreed with the Rios deal

 

http://www.chicagotribune.com/sports/baseb...9,0,71568.story

 

As the winter meetings were getting under way in Dallas, Theo Epstein revealed one of the secrets to his success as a general manager. “If you see a good player coming off an unusually bad year, that’s the time you get him,’’ he said.

[LittleHurt05]

The funny thing is that in theory, Theo would have agreed with the Rios deal

 

http://www.chicagotribune.com/sports/baseb...9,0,71568.story

 

Offer him Adam Dunn....NOW

[Jordan4life_2007]

The funny thing is that in theory, Theo would have agreed with the Rios deal

 

http://www.chicagotribune.com/sports/baseb...9,0,71568.story

 

At that salary and those guaranteed years? I doubt that's what he meant.

[southsider2k5]

Offer him Adam Dunn....NOW

 

I'm sure he'd do it... If we took back Soriano.

[iamshack]

The funny thing is that in theory, Theo would have agreed with the Rios deal

 

http://www.chicagotribune.com/sports/baseb...9,0,71568.story

I actually liked the Rios deal better than the Peavy one. Yes, I was excited we got Peavy right at the deadline like we did, but in my view, we exposed ourselves to a lot more risk picking up a guy who benefitted from an extreme pitcher's park and had a lot of injury concerns coming with him than the guy who has all the talent in the world, but has an attitude problem. I sincerely believed Rios would blossom here under Ozzie. Unfortunately, I am still waiting.

 

As for Dunn...I never liked Dunn as a player, and I was one of the few who was not excited about that acquisition. However, he was always a consistent offensive player and it would have been impossible to predict the extent to which he would so suddenly fall. How can you blame an executive who's business it is to speculate that which was not foreseeable?

 

All that being said, I agree with Theo...and I am willing to bet if the Cubs had any money they would be willing to talk to the White Sox about Dunn right now.

[Iwritecode]

Eh, Sox fans are major fair weather fans. Dress it up how you like, but it is true.

 

I don't think we're really that much worse than other sports fans. It's just that we are always compared to the other baseball team in town who are the one exception to the rule.

 

How many other teams can manage to draw 3 million fans to watch a team win 60 games?

[bmags]

I don't think we're really that much worse than other sports fans. It's just that we are always compared to the other baseball team in town who are the one exception to the rule.

 

How many other teams can manage to draw 3 million fans to watch a team win 60 games?

 

Also, I don't care what that other fan was saying about affordable options...Sox games are really, really expensive. I went to the most games in 05, and that wasn't just because they were good, it was because it was the last affordable season.