KW and SOX fans are to blame for this mess..

[SOXOBAMA]

There are many ways to cut cost..

 

Eat at home and not at the ball park

take a train

sit in the upper deck

bring bottles of water with you to the park

 

Also check stubhub for good seats at low prices..

Edited December 9, 2011 by SOXOBAMA

[Milkman delivers]

I actually liked the Rios deal better than the Peavy one. Yes, I was excited we got Peavy right at the deadline like we did, but in my view, we exposed ourselves to a lot more risk picking up a guy who benefitted from an extreme pitcher's park and had a lot of injury concerns coming with him than the guy who has all the talent in the world, but has an attitude problem. I sincerely believed Rios would blossom here under Ozzie. Unfortunately, I am still waiting.

 

As for Dunn...I never liked Dunn as a player, and I was one of the few who was not excited about that acquisition. However, he was always a consistent offensive player and it would have been impossible to predict the extent to which he would so suddenly fall. How can you blame an executive who's business it is to speculate that which was not foreseeable?

 

All that being said, I agree with Theo...and I am willing to bet if the Cubs had any money they would be willing to talk to the White Sox about Dunn right now.

 

I agree with your first paragraph. I recall myself being excited to land Rios, as he has all the talent in the world and seemed like he was simply unhappy in Toronto. To be honest, I was in favor of all three of the acquisitions of Dunn, Rios, and Peavy (and in that order). There were some reservations with Peavy's injury history, but I never foresaw it going as badly as it did.

 

Either way, mistakes are mistake and KW should still be on his way out.

[sircaffey]

There are many ways to cut cost..

 

Eat at home and not at the ball park

take a train

sit in the upper deck

bring bottles of water with you to the park

Or watch the game on TV.

[caulfield12]

Thanks to you and many for the kind words. I've had flurries of posting on the various Sox boards for many, many years. Just not sustainable for me. I know myself and I've learned to use these sources primarily for the info/rumor fix. I've long enjoyed THIS board most of all because of the quality of the baseball thought AND the writing/humor.

 

As to your points Hi, I agree somewhat that 2011 became almost the perfect storm of individually and even epically poor performances by historically predictable players which dashed some high hopes virtually from the season's outset. You'll never hear me bashing KW or any GM for a well-considered trade or move which turns out to be horrendous (in hindsight) because of later factors that few if any could have reasonably predicted. Adam Dunn's 2011 was pathetic beyond belief, especially coming from a seemingly healthy ballplayer whose back of the baseball card showed almost eerie year-to-year consistency. Many saw SOME warning signs that he might decline a bit (the whole "never DH'd before thing was a personal concern"), and I personally HATE that style of all-or-nothing slugger, but if you opted to have that style of player in your lineup, then Dunn SEEMED as safe and predictable a bet as any signing in the history of free agents. Turned out a bit differently, but you can't convince me that ANY GM in baseball could have guessed THAT.

 

But here's the thing, yeah, everything that could go wrong did go wrong, horribly wrong, but I NEVER saw that team as constructed as some juggernaut big-payroll team. Rather, I saw it as a flawed team that COULD do some real damage if everything went right, but it was a big payroll team because of many poor past decisions and the need to spend money to band-aid the product.

 

Don't want to write a novel here (although sure I will), but I definitely saw it as a masquerade -- "look what we're giving you -- a high payroll," when in fact any analysis at all saw a lot of overpaid players whose declining (or overrated) skillsets made for a poorly constructed TEAM. Some examples:

 

*Juan Pierre -- Don't get me started. He CAN do some things, but the guy hasn't been a high quality and EVERYDAY leadoff hitter for years. Yet, infuriatingly, stubborn Ozzie trotted the guy out there every damned day, resting the other starters (but you'd always see Pierre), so like Jaime Navarro years ago as a starter, he wasn't only (relatively) awful, he was durable in being awful. Yuck to the max. An A.L. leadoff guy with no power, tremendously overrated stolen base ability (at this point in his career), and horrendous outfield tools (other than pure ability to get to a ball) was simply a big, big problem (exacerbated by a manager who saw things in him that virtually no one else did).

 

*Dunn -- talked about him above, but not only don't I like his style for this team (all of our former sluggers had been hitters with power, rather than sluggers -- e.g., Dick Allen, the Big Skirt, Maggs, modern-day Konerko, and even TCQ), Dunn and his $$$ should never have been necessary had KW not botched the whole Gentleman Jim Thome thing (who on his worst day is twice the hitter that Dunn is). So the team has to then band-aid to get Dunn, we unexpectedly get epic fail out of a former slugging robot, but Ozzie again exacerbates things by not only batting Dunn third (even against lefties ... who in their right mind would EVER bat Adam Dunn third against anybody?), but doing it over and over again. I won't go so far as to say Ozzie threw games to make a point about Kenny's acquisitions, but stubborn Ozzie continually hurt the team the last few years by trying to prove that HE is the smartest guy in the room and going against basic statistics and other prevailing baseball opinion.

 

*Rios -- All I can say about Rios is that the way he underperforms his tools is infuriating, embarrassing, and upsetting. So sure, we have a big payroll, but I could never think we had any sort of juggernaut when we have to rely on a guy like that as a major cog. In my opinion, Rios above all others is the one that KW should take the heat for. Again, we weren't ever a top team, we were just being told we had a top team.

 

*Peavy -- Loved the aggressiveness of going out and getting an ace, but for an organization historically reluctant to take big chances on pitching, this was a head-scratcher to me (and yes, even at the time). Petco splits, already existing concerns about how his max-effort and somewhat unsound delivery would age, and how his style would generally translate to the stronger A.L. lineups made many people wonder whether THIS was the ace you really wanted to pay the long-term big-bucks for. Hey, allegedly part of the thinking for letting Hudson go for Jackson was scouting info that suggested Hudson and his style would never amount to "all that much" in the A.L. Debatable, but fine, that's a position. But you can't have it both ways. Because many said the exact same thing in the opposite direction about Peavy. N.L. Petco Peavy might have been worth X, but not the Peavy that we'd be getting (and his later injuries have absolutely nothing to do with my analysis).

 

But all the player overrating aside, my real problem with EVER having any confidence in last year's product was the continuing dysfunction between our goofball manager and our swell-headed GM (and more broadly, our ownership that allowed all of this dysfunction to persist). Lots of examples out there about creative tensions between teammates that make the whole more than the sum of the parts, but 3-4 years of this nonsense already made it clear that THIS wasn't THAT. We had leadership at every level that was actually HURTING the overall team. That sabotaged the team from the start and made it as unlikeable a team, and product, as any Sox team I can remember (and 10-12 of my Sox fanatic friends felt exactly the same way).

 

All that said, Ozzie leaving was necessary. And I can't imagine how ownership would possibly want the architect to supervise the fix. My hope is that some soul-searching may result in a changed approach (loved Kenny in his early years; very skeptical about change given the Santos deal, but maintaining some hope by seemingly being very patient about Danks, Floyd, Thornton, and Quentin).

 

Hey, no team is perfect -- even the true juggernauts. I simply saw so many problems with this team from the get-go that I wasn't excited from 2011 Day 1 (hopeful, yes; but not excited) and the inability of management to stop the free-fall made it a simply gut-wrenching baseball year.

 

 

Ultimately, that's where coaching and Guillen seemingly have failed the most....with Rios, Alexei Ramirez and Beckham, three seemingly talented guys with a world of potential who have simply massively underachieved (less so in Alexei's overall stats, but just from watching his performance defensively and hitting with RISP). Pitchers like Floyd, Danks and Thornton all plateaued in earlier seasons instead of building on their earlier success and establishing themselves as perennial All-Stars. Quentin could simply never stay healthy or continue to attack with the same approach on a consistent basis as he did in 2008.

 

We bought high and sold low on Swisher, 2 huge mistakes.

 

We bought high on Dunn and lost a first round draft pick.

 

We made just as glaring a mistake to let Thome going and attempting to fill in that gap with Kotsay and Andruw Jones (the single biggest reason we lost to the Twins in 2010).

 

We overpaid for Peavy when Clayton Richard could have been helpful to our roster.

 

Then you have the Hudson/Jackson mess, buying way too high on Jackson and undervaluing Hudson going forward.

 

Still, it's all those "smaller" contracts like Teahen, Pierre, Thornton (overpaid now for a set-up guy), Frasor, overpaying AJ for this coming year, Will Ohman, Vizquel that hurt just as much. If you have a mediocre farm system, you find replacements internally for most of those guys.

 

It's just because the smaller contracts don't resonate quite like booing Dunn and Rios or being upset with the brittleness of Peavy and his bloated contract and buyout. Easier to point the finger at those 3 and Beckham, by far.

 

About the ONLY things to feel good about this past year were Buehrle, Konerko, Morel's last six weeks, DeAza, NOT trading Viciedo, Phil Humber and Santos. Everything else basically SUCKED and I agree 100% that it was the worst season I can ever remember and much worse than 2009 or 2007. Even 2001 was a sort of fun season with Canseco and the team at least rallying back to .500 at mid-season despite the 14-29 start. This year was just dismal. I cared a lot more at the end of 2007 than this past season...just waiting for either Ozzie, KW or optimistically, both of them to be gone.

 

 

Edited December 9, 2011 by caulfield12

[ewokpelts]

Also, I don't care what that other fan was saying about affordable options...Sox games are really, really expensive. I went to the most games in 05, and that wasn't just because they were good, it was because it was the last affordable season.

If you KNOW what you're doing, you can sit downstairs for under $25 almost every non-premium game. and well under $10 upstairs.

[iamshack]

I agree with your first paragraph. I recall myself being excited to land Rios, as he has all the talent in the world and seemed like he was simply unhappy in Toronto. To be honest, I was in favor of all three of the acquisitions of Dunn, Rios, and Peavy (and in that order). There were some reservations with Peavy's injury history, but I never foresaw it going as badly as it did.

 

Either way, mistakes are mistake and KW should still be on his way out.

So you're of the belief that a manager or leader who fails strictly by results should be fired, even if the circumstances were unforeseeable? And I'm not trying to claim that KW hasn't made mistakes; but if you're going to judge him by those three moves, are you saying you'd fire the guy that achieved poor results but whose thinking was sound? Presumably you would keep the guy that achieved good results but whose thinking was not sound?

 

I guess the reason I am such a supporter of KW is because despite the fact that his results haven't been wonderful in recent years, I do believe in his methods. I'd rather be patient with a person whose methods I believe in than one who may experience success in the short term by way of luck.

 

 

[whitesoxfan101]

I went to as many Sox games a year as I could (sometimes even more) until last season, so don't blame me. But, you can blame me now, because I refuse to go to The Cell as long as Kenny Williams still has his job. I'll try to go to Sox/Cubs game at Wrigley and a road game or two every year beyond that (and I'll obviously watch on television), but the Sox aren't getting my gate money as long as Kenny Williams continues to not be held responsible for sending our team down the s***ter since it won the World Series. You can't defend 1 playoff appearance and 1 playoff game victory the last 6 years with the payroll we've had. And you shouldn't support it in person, either.

Edited December 9, 2011 by whitesoxfan101

[Milkman delivers]

So you're of the belief that a manager or leader who fails strictly by results should be fired, even if the circumstances were unforeseeable? And I'm not trying to claim that KW hasn't made mistakes; but if you're going to judge him by those three moves, are you saying you'd fire the guy that achieved poor results but whose thinking was sound? Presumably you would keep the guy that achieved good results but whose thinking was not sound?

 

I guess the reason I am such a supporter of KW is because despite the fact that his results haven't been wonderful in recent years, I do believe in his methods. I'd rather be patient with a person whose methods I believe in than one who may experience success in the short term by way of luck.

 

I'm not talking short term here. Williams has experienced 5 underachieving seasons in the past 6. So I guess if there were a GM whose team made the playoffs 5 times in 6 years despite making some seemingly bad moves, yeah, I'd stick with him.

[bmags]

There are many ways to cut cost..

 

Eat at home and not at the ball park

take a train

sit in the upper deck

bring bottles of water with you to the park

 

Also check stubhub for good seats at low prices..

 

In otherwords, take the fun out of going to a baseball game. Gotcha. I think i'll just watch at home, thanks. The reason for me to go to a park should go beyond fandom.

[SOXOBAMA]

I'm not talking short term here. Williams has experienced 5 underachieving seasons in the past 6. So I guess if there were a GM whose team made the playoffs 5 times in 6 years despite making some seemingly bad moves, yeah, I'd stick with him.

 

I would say only 3 seasons were underachieving..

 

06- We had 90 wins

07- many players were injured

08- playoffs

 

the last 3 years have been brutal..

Edited December 9, 2011 by SOXOBAMA

[SOXOBAMA]

In otherwords, take the fun out of going to a baseball game. Gotcha. I think i'll just watch at home, thanks. The reason for me to go to a park should go beyond fandom.

 

Whats fun about eating/drinking at the ballpark? I go to the park to see the game and root for the Sox.

 

 

[iamshack]

I'm not talking short term here. Williams has experienced 5 underachieving seasons in the past 6. So I guess if there were a GM whose team made the playoffs 5 times in 6 years despite making some seemingly bad moves, yeah, I'd stick with him.

Wait a second here...the 2006 team won like 90 games...and that was not his fault that they failed down the stretch...they had the second best record at the ASB.

 

Obviously in 2005 there was a WS...

 

The 2008 team won a division...

 

The 2011 team had every chance to win and the players and the manager just s*** themselves...

 

That's 4 teams in the last 7 that I felt very good about, and honestly, the 2009 team had every chance to win. The 2010 team KW and JR agreed to let Ozzie have things his way.

 

I can understand the discontent and the desire for change...but I'm not ready to turn my back on KW just yet...I want to see him function with someone that isn't bats*** crazy for a year or two...

[bmags]

Whats fun about eating/drinking at the ballpark? I go to the park to see the game and root for the Sox.

 

Everything is fun about drinking and eating at the ballpark.

[whitesoxfan101]

Wait a second here...the 2006 team won like 90 games...and that was not his fault that they failed down the stretch...they had the second best record at the ASB.

 

Obviously in 2005 there was a WS...

 

The 2008 team won a division...

 

The 2011 team had every chance to win and the players and the manager just s*** themselves...

 

That's 4 teams in the last 7 that I felt very good about, and honestly, the 2009 team had every chance to win. The 2010 team KW and JR agreed to let Ozzie have things his way.

 

I can understand the discontent and the desire for change...but I'm not ready to turn my back on KW just yet...I want to see him function with someone that isn't bats*** crazy for a year or two...

 

Two playoff appearances in eleven years. I understand some of those other nine years had good teams that missed the playoffs, but this is a bottom line business and we're not even in the best division in the AL.

 

[iamshack]

In otherwords, take the fun out of going to a baseball game. Gotcha. I think i'll just watch at home, thanks. The reason for me to go to a park should go beyond fandom.

This is every major league baseball team. If you want to go to a baseball game and drink beer and eat a lot of food and NOT spend a ton of money, go to a MiLB game, because it isn't happening in the MLB anymore.

 

I went to quite a few games when I was still living in Chicago, and I would get two Kosher dogs and a beer, which would cost around $15, and that was it for me. If you want to get drunk at a baseball game, be prepared to shell out $75-100, that's just the way things are now.

[iamshack]

Everything is fun about drinking and eating at the ballpark.

One word for you:

 

Tailgate

[iamshack]

Two playoff appearances in eleven years. I understand some of those other nine years had good teams that missed the playoffs, but this is a bottom line business and we're not even in the best division in the AL.

Yep, I understand.

 

How many years do you think we had the best roster?

[whitesoxfan101]

Yep, I understand.

 

How many years do you think we had the best roster?

 

What I think doesn't make a difference. I'm just a fan, and even if we say I'm a fan with a ton of knowledge, what I think about the Sox talent level is irrelevant. Hell, what anybody THINKS about it doesn't matter. All that matters is where the team is after 162 games.

[SOXOBAMA]

I believe with a better MGR, we would have been to the playoffs a lot more

[iamshack]

What I think doesn't make a difference. I'm just a fan, and even if we say I'm a fan with a ton of knowledge, what I think about the Sox talent level is irrelevant. Hell, what anybody THINKS about it doesn't matter. All that matters is where the team is after 162 games.

Well I am not saying you get to make any decisions.

 

But in order for us to have a discussion about this, which you clearly intended, since you joined the thread and quoted my post, we need to have your opinion.

[southsider2k5]

I agree with your first paragraph. I recall myself being excited to land Rios, as he has all the talent in the world and seemed like he was simply unhappy in Toronto. To be honest, I was in favor of all three of the acquisitions of Dunn, Rios, and Peavy (and in that order). There were some reservations with Peavy's injury history, but I never foresaw it going as badly as it did.

Either way, mistakes are mistake and KW should still be on his way out.

 

This is the fan equal of saying that a guy with 16 wins and a 5.50 era is better than a guy with 10 wins and a 2.25 era.

[bmags]

One word for you:

 

Tailgate

 

I mean, once again, most affordable games are on weekdays, and I don't have the luxury of being able to leave work early to go tailgate...I also don't own a car. But I shouldn't have to go out of my way to make a game affordable and enjoyable. At some point it's just not worth it. That point has passed (and I went to 8 games last year...that won't happen this year)

[ewokpelts]

In otherwords, take the fun out of going to a baseball game. Gotcha. I think i'll just watch at home, thanks. The reason for me to go to a park should go beyond fandom.

looks like you're an upper deck snob.

 

taking the train saves $25.

 

upper deck tickets will be as low as $7 this year at the box office

 

one water bottle at the park is $4.50. you can get a CASE for $3 at walgreen most of the time.

 

simple solutions that WORK.

 

 

[ewokpelts]

I mean, once again, most affordable games are on weekdays, and I don't have the luxury of being able to leave work early to go tailgate...I also don't own a car. But I shouldn't have to go out of my way to make a game affordable and enjoyable. At some point it's just not worth it. That point has passed (and I went to 8 games last year...that won't happen this year)

you dont own a car, but you think taking the train to the game is " taking the fun out of going to a game"

[bmags]

you dont own a car, but you think taking the train to the game is " taking the fun out of going to a game"

 

Honestly, i have no idea what the f*** you are talking about.