Soxbadger Posted February 24, 2012 Share Posted February 24, 2012 Ptatc, I agree completely, the MLB is using nonsense procedure, and that is not even getting into the fact they are using pee tests which are generally considered the least reliable. (As an aside, I know people who have definitely beat pee tests for drugs, just using $50 over the counter products) The whole thing comes down to MLB and having better procedures. We are talking a billion dollar a year industry, they can spend some money on this. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ptatc Posted February 24, 2012 Share Posted February 24, 2012 QUOTE (Soxbadger @ Feb 24, 2012 -> 02:25 PM) Because Braun didnt need to prove tampering. He only needed to prove that MLB screwed up and therefore the test was invalid. No reason to go beyond when its unnecessary. That's why its entirely speculation. If this was a case where not only did Braun have to show "improper protocol" but he also had to show that he was "likely to prevail on the merits" it would be an entirely different scenario. But its like the "fruit of the poisonous tree" in criminal law, once it was improperly handled, all of the evidence is no longer reliable. There are ways to prevent this, but MLB just does not have a policy to protect against errors. (IE MLB could require every stadium to have a facility to store specimens indefinitely, that way there would have been another sample that had not been improperly handled to test against.) Simply put, MLB's own laziness lack of control caused this problem. If they are mad, they should be mad at themselves. This is the case. Although you are mixing the terms reliable and valid again. The test is still reliable however the result were made invalid due to the procedural violation. MLB needs to change the procedure to prevent this from happening again. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Quin Posted February 24, 2012 Share Posted February 24, 2012 He isn't guilty, but he sure isn't innocent. I can't stand the Brewers fans on my floor that love to champion the following: LeBron, Wade, Lin, Tebow, and Braun. God I l'd love to see one of their idols fall, especially Braun because while I liked him in the past, if he's innocent he's not resorting to procedural error to cover his ass. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ptatc Posted February 24, 2012 Share Posted February 24, 2012 QUOTE (Soxbadger @ Feb 24, 2012 -> 02:28 PM) Ptatc, I agree completely, the MLB is using nonsense procedure, and that is not even getting into the fact they are using pee tests which are generally considered the least reliable. (As an aside, I know people who have definitely beat pee tests for drugs, just using $50 over the counter products)The whole thing comes down to MLB and having better procedures. We are talking a billion dollar a year industry, they can spend some money on this. The urine test is a very reliable and valid test for testing for the T/E ratio. The way the people you know that beat the urine test would not work in professional or olympic sports. They test for a wider range of masking agents and other substances than a regular drug test. As a matter of fact at the olympic level most athletes that are suspended get caught with masking agents (including in blood tests) then they do for getting caught with the actual banned substance. However, your main point is accurrate. It is up to baseball to close the loophole. The USOC has an entire branch to work through issues like this because the athletes are always coming up with new things, baseball should probably just work with thme instead of trying to re-create the wheel on thier own. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
iamshack Posted February 24, 2012 Share Posted February 24, 2012 QUOTE (Steve9347 @ Feb 24, 2012 -> 02:34 PM) Hi, Naive. I'm reality. http://sports.espn.go.com/mlb/news/story?id=3153646 There is no "profile" of a PED abuser. They come in all shapes, sizes, and colors. There sure as f*** is a profile. He is already celebrated as one of the best players in the game. He signed a below-market contract basically through the end of his career, yet he is also set monetarily for life. By all accounts he is an extremely hard worker and a grounded, easy-going guy. He's young and in the prime of his career. He also has come out in the past against steroid and PED usage. I'm sorry that you're so jaded that you're going to consider everyone guilty before proven innocent, but I'm just not buying it here. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Soxbadger Posted February 24, 2012 Share Posted February 24, 2012 Ptatc, Yeah im not a scientist so Ill probably use the words poorly. But my main point (and I think you agree), is that its up to MLB to create a system where this does not happen. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Milkman delivers Posted February 24, 2012 Share Posted February 24, 2012 QUOTE (Soxbadger @ Feb 24, 2012 -> 02:25 PM) Because Braun didnt need to prove tampering. He only needed to prove that MLB screwed up and therefore the test was invalid. No reason to go beyond when its unnecessary. That's why its entirely speculation. If this was a case where not only did Braun have to show "improper protocol" but he also had to show that he was "likely to prevail on the merits" it would be an entirely different scenario. But its like the "fruit of the poisonous tree" in criminal law, once it was improperly handled, all of the evidence is no longer reliable. There are ways to prevent this, but MLB just does not have a policy to protect against errors. (IE MLB could require every stadium to have a facility to store specimens indefinitely, that way there would have been another sample that had not been improperly handled to test against.) Simply put, MLB's own laziness lack of control caused this problem. If they are mad, they should be mad at themselves. I agree with you. But I would like to know if you believe Braun was using a banned substance. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Milkman delivers Posted February 24, 2012 Share Posted February 24, 2012 QUOTE (Quinarvy @ Feb 24, 2012 -> 02:34 PM) He isn't guilty, but he sure isn't innocent. I can't stand the Brewers fans on my floor that love to champion the following: LeBron, Wade, Lin, Tebow, and Braun. God I l'd love to see one of their idols fall, especially Braun because while I liked him in the past, if he's innocent he's not resorting to procedural error to cover his ass. Huh? I can get Wade, I guess. QUOTE (iamshack @ Feb 24, 2012 -> 02:43 PM) There sure as f*** is a profile. He is already celebrated as one of the best players in the game. He signed a below-market contract basically through the end of his career, yet he is also set monetarily for life. By all accounts he is an extremely hard worker and a grounded, easy-going guy. He's young and in the prime of his career. He also has come out in the past against steroid and PED usage. I'm sorry that you're so jaded that you're going to consider everyone guilty before proven innocent, but I'm just not buying it here. Barry Bonds. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Soxbadger Posted February 24, 2012 Share Posted February 24, 2012 (edited) I dont know, Im on the fence. If I was hard pressed, Id probably say that I do not think Braun used steroids on the basis that he has never failed any other test and the only one he did fail had unusual circumstances. Its hard to guess when I dont know him and dont have any real evidence. Either way, its problematic. If Braun really was taking steroids, its impossible to believe that he just randomly did it, which puts the entire MLB drug testing policy at issue because Braun has passed numerous times. If he really wasnt taking steroids, then what the hell happened. Its just bad for MLB, no matter what you think (imo). Edited February 24, 2012 by Soxbadger Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
iamshack Posted February 24, 2012 Share Posted February 24, 2012 QUOTE (Milkman delivers @ Feb 24, 2012 -> 02:52 PM) Barry Bonds. The entire reason Bonds took the cream and the clear was because he was pissed that McGwire and Sosa were getting all the hype during the '98 home run chase. Additionally, he made about $100 million in additional salary after he began taking them. He also took them beginning at the age of 33/34 and showed many symptoms of taking PEDs. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Milkman delivers Posted February 24, 2012 Share Posted February 24, 2012 QUOTE (iamshack @ Feb 24, 2012 -> 02:58 PM) The entire reason Bonds took the cream and the clear was because he was pissed that McGwire and Sosa were getting all the hype during the '98 home run chase. Additionally, he made about $100 million in additional salary after he began taking them. He also took them beginning at the age of 33/34 and showed many symptoms of taking PEDs. Prove it. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
iamshack Posted February 24, 2012 Share Posted February 24, 2012 (edited) QUOTE (Milkman delivers @ Feb 24, 2012 -> 04:01 PM) Prove it. Read Game of Shadows. One of the co-authors is Mark Fainaru-Wada, same guy covering the story for ESPN. Additionally, you saw the physical transformation with Bonds. You don't see it with Braun. Edited February 24, 2012 by iamshack Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ptatc Posted February 24, 2012 Share Posted February 24, 2012 QUOTE (iamshack @ Feb 24, 2012 -> 02:43 PM) There sure as f*** is a profile. He is already celebrated as one of the best players in the game. He signed a below-market contract basically through the end of his career, yet he is also set monetarily for life. By all accounts he is an extremely hard worker and a grounded, easy-going guy. He's young and in the prime of his career. He also has come out in the past against steroid and PED usage. I'm sorry that you're so jaded that you're going to consider everyone guilty before proven innocent, but I'm just not buying it here. It's not that I'm jaded as a matter of fact I think it's the other way around. I'm assuming that the collector did not tamper with the sample so the positive test is valid and Braun is guilty. You are assuming that someone intentionally tampered with the sample to make Braun look guilty. I think your view is more jaded by thinking that someone is out to get Braun by tampering with the sample. That is realistically the only way the positive test is wrong in all the samples. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Milkman delivers Posted February 24, 2012 Share Posted February 24, 2012 QUOTE (iamshack @ Feb 24, 2012 -> 03:03 PM) Read Game of Shadows. One of the co-authors is Mark Fainaru-Wada, same guy covering the story for ESPN. Additionally, you saw the physical transformation with Bonds. You don't see it with Braun. You didn't see it with a few guys. f***ing Pablo Ozuna was on them. Rafael Palmeiro didn't change at all. And to be clear, we have no idea when Braun started using steroids. He may have been on them for a very long time. It's possible to stay ahead of the curve. It's obvious that this is one of those divisive issues where people are not going to agree. I wanted to walk away from this thread earlier, but I relented. I'm just going to stop talking about this now Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
iamshack Posted February 24, 2012 Share Posted February 24, 2012 QUOTE (ptatc @ Feb 24, 2012 -> 03:03 PM) It's not that I'm jaded as a matter of fact I think it's the other way around. I'm assuming that the collector did not tamper with the sample so the positive test is valid and Braun is guilty. You are assuming that someone intentionally tampered with the sample to make Braun look guilty. I think your view is more jaded by thinking that someone is out to get Braun by tampering with the sample. That is realistically the only way the positive test is wrong in all the samples. First of all, I wasn't responding to you, so I didn't call you jaded. Secondly, this is completely out of character for Braun. I know you're livelihood is in the medical community but that doesn't mean that something funny didn't go on here. I am not assuming anyone did anything to make Braun look one way or the other. I'm saying everything anyone has ever said about the guy contradicts this test. You're telling me I'm jaded because I believe in the man instead of a test where the chain of custody was botched? Right. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Steve9347 Posted February 24, 2012 Share Posted February 24, 2012 QUOTE (iamshack @ Feb 24, 2012 -> 02:43 PM) There sure as f*** is a profile. He is already celebrated as one of the best players in the game. He signed a below-market contract basically through the end of his career, yet he is also set monetarily for life. By all accounts he is an extremely hard worker and a grounded, easy-going guy. He's young and in the prime of his career. He also has come out in the past against steroid and PED usage. I'm sorry that you're so jaded that you're going to consider everyone guilty before proven innocent, but I'm just not buying it here. LOL. Jaded, realistic, same difference when it comes to PEDs in MLB. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
iamshack Posted February 24, 2012 Share Posted February 24, 2012 QUOTE (Steve9347 @ Feb 24, 2012 -> 03:16 PM) LOL. Jaded, realistic, same difference when it comes to PEDs in MLB. I'd love to see your reaction if this happened to Frank Thomas. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jordan4life_2007 Posted February 24, 2012 Share Posted February 24, 2012 QUOTE (iamshack @ Feb 24, 2012 -> 03:18 PM) I'd love to see your reaction if this happened to Frank Thomas. Blasphemy. That would never happen. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Texsox Posted February 24, 2012 Share Posted February 24, 2012 I found it difficult to believe he did use PEDs, but eventually was convinced. A procedural error doesn't sway my opinion that he was using. With the money they are earning, and the money labs could be making, I believe labs are continuing to design substances to help athletes and only the guys willing to spend seven figures will have them. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
LittleHurt05 Posted February 24, 2012 Share Posted February 24, 2012 QUOTE (iamshack @ Feb 24, 2012 -> 03:18 PM) I'd love to see your reaction if this happened to Frank Thomas. Considering that he's out of baseball, why would MLB be testing him? Is he planning a comeback we haven't heard about? That would be more shocking than anything else. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Steve9347 Posted February 24, 2012 Share Posted February 24, 2012 QUOTE (iamshack @ Feb 24, 2012 -> 03:18 PM) I'd love to see your reaction if this happened to Frank Thomas. It wouldn't happen, but if it did, I wouldn't be surprised because I really have zero faith in professional sports players anymore. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
iamshack Posted February 24, 2012 Share Posted February 24, 2012 QUOTE (LittleHurt05 @ Feb 24, 2012 -> 03:36 PM) Considering that he's out of baseball, why would MLB be testing him? Is he planning a comeback we haven't heard about? That would be more shocking than anything else. haha...I meant during his playing days. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
iamshack Posted February 24, 2012 Share Posted February 24, 2012 QUOTE (Steve9347 @ Feb 24, 2012 -> 03:39 PM) It wouldn't happen, but if it did, I wouldn't be surprised because I really have zero faith in professional sports players anymore. I'm sure most Brewers fans would have said the same thing about Braun testing positive...that it wouldn't happen. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Steve9347 Posted February 24, 2012 Share Posted February 24, 2012 QUOTE (iamshack @ Feb 24, 2012 -> 03:57 PM) I'm sure most Brewers fans would have said the same thing about Braun testing positive...that it wouldn't happen. Who the f*** cares? How does this matter? The dude is a lying cheater and I'm glad he got caught and a shadow has been cast over his entire career. I will never be shocked and never act surprised and certainly never say that someone doesn't "fit the profile" of a PED abuser. That is because there is no profile. That is because juicers come in all shapes, sizes, and colors. Also, Ryan Braun is a douchebag and his t-shirts are lame. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
iamshack Posted February 24, 2012 Share Posted February 24, 2012 QUOTE (Steve9347 @ Feb 24, 2012 -> 05:17 PM) Who the f*** cares? How does this matter? The dude is a lying cheater and I'm glad he got caught and a shadow has been cast over his entire career. I will never be shocked and never act surprised and certainly never say that someone doesn't "fit the profile" of a PED abuser. That is because there is no profile. That is because juicers come in all shapes, sizes, and colors. Also, Ryan Braun is a douchebag and his t-shirts are lame. As I said, jaded. And there certainly is a profile. Anytime there isn't a profile, it's simply because you haven't determined what it is yet. Also, I'm sure he doesn't like you either. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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