What's the better move?

[Eminor3rd]

No one will take Rios with any other piece the White Sox can offer.

 

Maybe Reagins will get a GM job real quick. Rios would look like a bargain next to Wells haha

[Balta1701]

Maybe Reagins will get a GM job real quick. Rios would look like a bargain next to Wells haha

Wells was at least coming off a very good season when the Angels did that move. We can't even say that about Rios. He's coming off an historically bad season.

[bigruss]

Wells was at least coming off a very good season when the Angels did that move. We can't even say that about Rios. He's coming off an historically bad season.

Season and a half is more accurate.

[caulfield12]

I don't think losing 63 innings should signal a complete firesale. I still believe Williams has done a terrible job this offseason, but I'm sure he went into the Winter Meetings with intentions of trading a lot of pieces for younger pieces but needed the packages to back that up and wasn't receiving what he needed. I'm sure he also targeted players and that one of them was Molina. When he found out that he could acquire Molina by trading a reliever, whose max value to a team really is ~2 WAR, he pulled the trigger.

 

I'm in agreement with the above poster(s) suggesting that they either blow it up completely or pretty much leave the rest in tact. The only guy who I feel is an absolute necessity to move right now is Quentin. I doubt you get any compensation for him as a free agent and he could net a quality prospect or two, plus the Sox can field a full and competent outfield without Quentin right now. You can then make a depth signing or two as well. If they do feel the need to trade Danks, then throughout the course of the season, several other pieces should be dealt as well.

 

 

Agreed, the problem is that we can net 2X the prospects for Danks as we can for Quentin.

 

Tough position to be in for KW. There's definitely less depth in the starting rotation.

 

You can easily imagine (well, maybe not SO easily) getting Quentin's overall production (especially when you consider games missed due to injuries, HBP, etc.) from either Viciedo or DeAza...maybe 50-75 points lower, but you're also saving $6-7 million in the process. Of course, that money won't be plugged back in anywhere soon.

 

So for the OF and DH position, you have six guys now in DeAza, Rios, Quentin, Viciedo, Dunn and Lillibrige. The odds are seemingly quite high that at least 2 of those guys, if not more, will fail.

 

On the other hand, there's still a MUCH better chance at competing with Danks than with Quentin.

 

And the other concern with trading Danks is that puts a lot more pressure on the organization and KW to promote Molina before he's 100% ready.

With a Danks trade, you're forcing every member of the rotation up a spot.

 

Floyd

Sale

Peavy

Humber

Stewart/Molina/Axelrod/Santiago

 

Forecasting any of those guys is extremely difficult, except for Floyd. (Another of the unappreciated strengths of a Buehrle in the rotation). Which Humber and Peavy are we going to get? Even if Sale is lights-out and an All-Star, how many innings can he realistically be expected to pitch before they would be forced to shut him down, potentially in the middle of a pennant race if all goes right.

 

Still, looking at it long-term, you almost have to trade Danks at some point this season. The worst-case scenario is you hold onto him and the team's "sort of in contention" around the ASB, they fade again at the end and you get very little of immediate value back in return.

Edited December 16, 2011 by caulfield12

[max power]

No one will take Rios with any other piece the White Sox can offer.

Rios + Danks for a player to be named later. Someone would do it.

[caulfield12]

Rios + Danks for a player to be named later. Someone would do it.

 

 

You'd have to throw in Thornton, too.

 

Something like Rios, Danks and Thornton (because Boone Logan was their first lefty out the pen for most of the season) for Gardner or minor leaguers.

 

Personally, I feel it would be better to hold onto Rios for at least another half season and see if he can turn it around again.

Edited December 17, 2011 by caulfield12

[southsider2k5]

Rios + Danks for a player to be named later. Someone would do it.

 

No they wouldn't. That would value Danks at over $20 million for next year.

[iamshack]

You'd have to throw in Thornton, too.

 

Something like Rios, Danks and Thornton (because Boone Logan was their first lefty out the pen for most of the season) for Gardner or minor leaguers.

 

Personally, I feel it would be better to hold onto Rios for at least another half season and see if he can turn it around again.

Thornton is making $6 million or whatever, so you're saying the Yankees take on $25 million AND give us Gardner back?

 

I think the only way you could do it is to attach Chris Sale to him.

[Balta1701]

You'd have to throw in Thornton, too.

 

Something like Rios, Danks and Thornton (because Boone Logan was their first lefty out the pen for most of the season) for Gardner or minor leaguers.

 

Personally, I feel it would be better to hold onto Rios for at least another half season and see if he can turn it around again.

I can't repeat this enough.

 

The White Sox have zero need for Brett Gardner.

 

The White Sox have 5 outfielders who need playing time right now in the big leagues if you count the Stealth Elf. 5 outfielders for 3 positions, and DH is taken.

 

The White Sox need to find a place for De Aza, Viciedo, and Rios to play this year. Carlos Quentin is already in the way of that. It's the only way we can find out what we have in those guys...all 3 of them have the talent to be legit starting MLB OF's, or at least the contract of them. And Lillibridge flat out earned playing time.

 

Trading for Brett Gardner gives us 6 outfielders. It makes us need to trade Quentin and consigns both De Aza and Lillibridge to the bench or worse, to the DFA list. You might, might be able to pull off moving Lillibridge to SS, but there are 2 SS's on the way up in our minor leagues who can be the backup/young SS in a year or two.

 

Worse still...Brett Gardner is not cheap any more. Brett Gardner is a first year arbitration eligible player this year. I repeat, Brett Gardner is a first year arb-eligible player this year. So we're talking something in the range of $3.5 million this year when the White Sox are uncompetitive...then $6-7 million next year, then $10 million or more if you want to keep him for the 3rd year. Brett Gardner will be half way cheap this year when the White Sox are rebuilding...then will immediately become expensive in 2013, and the White Sox may or may not be in a position to compete in 2013.

 

Brett Gardner is an asset in 2012 for a team that needs outfielders, has money to spend, and wants to compete this year. The White Sox are NONE of these.

[gosox41]

Doesn't that move fit into "Try to win in 2012" but retool for future?

 

If Reed can do equal job as Santos, we just got Molina for freezey.

 

But could we have gotten more for Santos? Based on the projections for Molia, I'm disappointed the Sox didn't get either a better prospect or 2 Molina type prospects.

 

A 28 year old closer with great stuff, low milage, and a favorable contract. Surely some team would overpay for that.

 

Heck, the guy in Anaheim jsut gave Puljos $250MM and he's on the wrong side of 20.

 

 

Bob

[caulfield12]

I can't repeat this enough.

 

The White Sox have zero need for Brett Gardner.

 

The White Sox have 5 outfielders who need playing time right now in the big leagues if you count the Stealth Elf. 5 outfielders for 3 positions, and DH is taken.

 

The White Sox need to find a place for De Aza, Viciedo, and Rios to play this year. Carlos Quentin is already in the way of that. It's the only way we can find out what we have in those guys...all 3 of them have the talent to be legit starting MLB OF's, or at least the contract of them. And Lillibridge flat out earned playing time.

 

Trading for Brett Gardner gives us 6 outfielders. It makes us need to trade Quentin and consigns both De Aza and Lillibridge to the bench or worse, to the DFA list. You might, might be able to pull off moving Lillibridge to SS, but there are 2 SS's on the way up in our minor leagues who can be the backup/young SS in a year or two.

 

Worse still...Brett Gardner is not cheap any more. Brett Gardner is a first year arbitration eligible player this year. I repeat, Brett Gardner is a first year arb-eligible player this year. So we're talking something in the range of $3.5 million this year when the White Sox are uncompetitive...then $6-7 million next year, then $10 million or more if you want to keep him for the 3rd year. Brett Gardner will be half way cheap this year when the White Sox are rebuilding...then will immediately become expensive in 2013, and the White Sox may or may not be in a position to compete in 2013.

 

Brett Gardner is an asset in 2012 for a team that needs outfielders, has money to spend, and wants to compete this year. The White Sox are NONE of these.

 

 

If they were to actually contemplate taking on Rios' contract, which they PROBABLY wouldn't, he'd have to play somewhere in that outfield.

 

Obviously they're not going to send us Swisher or Granderson back, so who would you suggest would make it work from their point of view? They would have no choice but to play Rios somewhere.

 

Danks and Thornton have very little to no value to the White Sox this season, especially since Matt's not going to be the closer again but he's paid too high for a set-up guy. We already are paying Frasor and Crain too much for a rebuilding team.

 

For all the reasons you're pointing out that Gardner is "bad" for the White Sox, it makes him more appealing to the Yankees to trade him.

 

The main objective would be to get out from under that $35-40 million or whatever it is exactly we still owe Rios.

 

And sure, Alex Rios could play just as well as Swisher did in NYC and KW would look silly and foolish again for giving up on a player. However, that same overpaid player hasn't performed for the Sox in 1 1/2 years.

 

 

They can still trade Quentin whenever they want. I guess you could argue we have no choice but to trade him and that would give other teams leverage...or more leverage, but that all goes out the window with the first injuries in ST or early April/May.

 

Besides, they know we have to trade Quentin anyway, in order to play Dayan and DeAza. And DeAza's the only logical leadoff hitter in the line-up, and already performed well there in limited opportunities last season.

 

And you said 3 outfield positions, you can add Lillibridge's bat to the DH battle, either against all LHP if Dunn is still struggling or as depth/insurance that Adam completely goes into the tank again in 2012.

 

Yes, I understand that trading Danks and Thornton gives us ZERO margin for error in competing, but it doesn't make it impossible. (Most importantly, it clears one of the two biggest weights around our payroll and gets rid of a clubhouse distraction/cancer, which can have nothing but a positive effect on team chemistry.) And that clears a little room to add a veteran pitcher/FA (someone like a Ben Sheets, Harden or Penny type for additional depth) that you can sign on an incentive-laden deal, another version of Cal Eldred from back in 2000. Trading Quentin, you can get another LHP to go with Ohman and Santiago in the pen, along with a position prospect or two.

 

With Gardner and DeAza in the line-up, we'd have a lot more athleticism than we've had in recent years (no, Rios doesn't count the way he's dogged it). With Viciedo and Quentin at 1B/DH, you could even play Gardner, DeAza and Lillibridge together.

 

AT THE VERY LEAST, watching that outfield and the multiple line-up options with the top and bottom of the order would be exciting for a change.

 

And yeah, it's possible you wouldn't have enough pop, but you would still have Konerko, Viciedo, Dunn, Ramirez, AJ and Morel (assuming he hits with the power he showed the final 6 weeks), and Beckham can hopefully hit again sometime with the White Sox as well.

 

 

Edited December 18, 2011 by caulfield12

[NCsoxfan]

Will Danks be a Type A after this year? Does that even mTter with the new CBA? Just wondering if there's any incentive to hold him.

[witesoxfan]

Will Danks be a Type A after this year? Does that even mTter with the new CBA? Just wondering if there's any incentive to hold him.

 

Type B's have been eliminated and you get atleast 1 draft pick for a Type A free agent. It's still going to be much better to trade him.

[max power]

No they wouldn't. That would value Danks at over $20 million for next year.

I'd say to have a pitcher like danks locked up for only one season it would cost something like $20 mil. Perhaps more. Danks certainly wouldn't not sign a one year deal cheaply. For the right team, who is short prospects and hoping to win this year, it could happen.

Edited December 21, 2011 by MAX

[southsider2k5]

I'd say to have a pitcher like danks locked up for only one season it would cost something like $20 mil. Perhaps more. Danks certainly wouldn't not sign a one year deal cheaply. For the right team, who is short prospects and hoping to win this year, it could happen.

 

Danks annual value is in the $15-16 million annual range tops.