Kim Jong Il Died

[RockRaines]

Missile test is supposed to be happening.

Hopefully he wont intentionally down a plane like his father did.

 

 

I was more saddened that the worlds greatest golfer died.

[Soxbadger]

Succession could be very troublesome. Il-Jong was much older when he succeeded his father and they had spent years prepping for it. Furthermore you are now once removed from any connection to Il-Sung who is the one that garners the armies loyalty. And of course the last problem is competing heirs, Jong-Il was the eldest son of Il-Sung, Jong-Un on the other hand is Il-Jong's youngest son, leaving arguably 2 other suitable candidates.

 

If you are going to strike for power, now is the time because Jong-Un is extremely young (27-28) .

[Milkman delivers]

f***ing Korean names. That paragraph above me was way too confusing, and I already knew the back story.

[Quin]

Succession could be very troublesome. Il-Jong was much older when he succeeded his father and they had spent years prepping for it. Furthermore you are now once removed from any connection to Il-Sung who is the one that garners the armies loyalty. And of course the last problem is competing heirs, Jong-Il was the eldest son of Il-Sung, Jong-Un on the other hand is Il-Jong's youngest son, leaving arguably 2 other suitable candidates.

 

If you are going to strike for power, now is the time because Jong-Un is extremely young (27-28) .

 

 

f***ing Korean names. That paragraph above me was way too confusing, and I already knew the back story.

 

 

But seriously, this video is appropriate.

 

[Y2HH]

<!--quoteo(post=2525175:date=Dec 19, 2011 -> 02:50 PM:name=Soxbadger)-->

<!--quotec-->Succession could be very troublesome. Il-Jong was much older when he succeeded his father and they had spent years prepping for it. Furthermore you are now once removed from any connection to Il-Sung who is the one that garners the armies loyalty. And of course the last problem is competing heirs, Jong-Il was the eldest son of Il-Sung, Jong-Un on the other hand is Il-Jong's youngest son, leaving arguably 2 other suitable candidates.

 

If you are going to strike for power, now is the time because Jong-Un is extremely young (27-28) .

 

 

<!--quoteo(post=2525180:date=Dec 19, 2011 -> 03:05 PM:name=Milkman delivers)-->

<!--quotec-->f***ing Korean names. That paragraph above me was way too confusing, and I already knew the back story.

 

 

But seriously, this video is appropriate.

 

 

That was great.

[LittleHurt05]

I watched some of the video of the North Koreans mourning his death, it's just kinda creepy. The "crying" looked so forced, like there was someone watching them to punish them if they didn't cry loud enough. Which is probably 100% true.

[southsider2k5]

I watched some of the video of the North Koreans mourning his death, it's just kinda creepy. The "crying" looked so forced, like there was someone watching them to punish them if they didn't cry loud enough. Which is probably 100% true.

 

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/magazine-16262027

 

The outpouring of grief in North Korea after the passing of Kim Jong-il has been fervent and widespread. So are the people sincerely feeling this loss or are they behaving as they think they should?

 

The North Korean nation took its cue from the state television presenter who was dressed in black and barely able to hold back the tears.

 

There followed tears, wailing and fists beaten against the pavement, but on a huge scale.

 

Men and women have been swept along on a wave of uncontrollable hysteria. "How could he leave us?" said one woman as she wiped away the tears.

 

The scenes were reminiscent of the mourning that followed the death of Kim Jong-il's father, Kim Il-sung, in 1994. So how genuine is the grief?

 

It's very difficult to know, says Anthony Daniels, a psychiatrist and writer whose pen name is Theodore Dalrymple. He visited North Korea in 1989 as a member of the British delegation to the International Festival of Youth and Students.

 

"It's a terrible mixture of fear, terror and apprehension about the future, mass hysteria and possibly genuine grief as well.

Continue reading the main story

Competitive crying

 

It's not easy to produce tears when you're not really feeling it but you could fake weeping and wailing and this mass hysteria makes it impossible to tell what is real. There's a kind of arms race situation in which you have to express yourself more and more extremely in order to demonstrate that you are feeling the orthodox emotions. A lot of it is perfectly compatible with acting. That isn't to say that it is acting, however.

 

Anthony Daniels, psychiatrist

 

"It's very difficult to know the reality and I think we'll never know the reality. There are huge cultural barriers anyway and then you have to remember this is a regime where everything that isn't forbidden is compulsory, so it's difficult to know what their state of mind really is."

 

No expression of emotion was apparent during that 1989 visit he made, he says, except mass hysteria.

 

"When I was in the huge stadium and the Great Leader [Kim Il-sung] came in, everyone stood up and started worshipping him, quite literally worshipping him and letting out a roar at the same time.

 

"It might be that these people would be terrified not to do that but at the same time it's possible that many of them felt a genuine allegiance to the Great Leader.

 

"After all, when Stalin died, people wept in the streets, although it was less effusive than in North Korea."

 

In a very small way, there have been examples in the West when people have felt compelled to express emotions, says Mr Daniels, author of The Wilder Shores of Marx. After Princess Diana died, some people felt afraid to dissent from the mass grieving, but there is a huge difference with North Korea on the level of compulsion involved.

Continue reading the main story

Mass grief

Woman crying at service for Diana

 

1953: It's estimated that millions of Russians went to Moscow to catch a final glimpse of the dictator Josef Stalin lying in state, with many openly weeping for the man they called '"Father", "Teacher", "God"

1989: The death of the leader of Iran's Islamic revolution, Ayatollah Khomeini, was met with a frenzied outpouring of grief, with several crushed to death as his coffin arrived at the cemetery

1997: Around a million people lined the streets of London as Princess Diana's funeral cortege made its way to Westminster Abbey, many in tears at shrines around the world (above)

2009: News of Michael Jackson's death on 25 June 2009 was met with tears, shrines and tributes from the singer's fans all over the world

 

In her book Nothing To Envy: Ordinary Lives in North Korea, Barbara Demick wrote, referring to Kim Il-sung's death in 1994: "The histrionics of grief took on a competitive quality. Who could weep the loudest?"

 

One young student in Pyongyang felt nothing as all around him were wailing, she noted. "His entire future depended on his ability to cry. Not just his career and his membership in the Workers' Party, his very survival was at stake. It was a matter of life and death."

 

He was saved, she wrote, by holding his eyelids open and his eyeballs exposed until they burned and began to tear up. Once they started, he began sobbing like everyone else.

 

For many it was probably a natural reaction, says Kerry Brown, head of the Asia programme at Chatham House, because learning about a leader's death raises questions for the North Koreans about their identity, their security and their ability to survive,

 

This is a nation that feels like it is always on a war footing, being looked after by their good and loving leader, he says. But we know no more about the real feelings of the Korean people than we know about the power struggles among the elite leadership.

 

"The control of information is so great that it's likely they feel real shock. So it's genuine hysteria but whether it's what we in the West call grief, we don't know."

 

They would be told they're under constant attack in a kind of constant war with the US, he says, and the "great victories" of the past were down to strong leadership, so the loss of the head in such a patriarchal system would be personally felt.

 

However, the grief in 1994 was much more shocking, he thinks, because Kim Il-sung's status in Korean society was much greater, so this period of mourning won't be as deep or as heartfelt this time.

[cabiness42]

It's very difficult to know, says Anthony Daniels, a psychiatrist and writer whose pen name is Theodore Dalrymple. He visited North Korea in 1989 as a member of the British delegation to the International Festival of Youth and Students.

 

Anthony Daniels was the perfect guy to send to North Korea, being fluent in over six million forms of communication.

[LittleHurt05]

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/magazine-16262027

 

Interesting stuff, thanks

[Milkman delivers]

Anthony Daniels was the perfect guy to send to North Korea, being fluent in over six million forms of communication.

 

Very nice.

[cabiness42]

Glad at least one person got it.

[Milkman delivers]

Glad at least one person got it.

 

Truth be told, I had to look into it. The line sounded familiar, so I looked up the actor's name.

[Jenksismyhero]

Have "great success" running that 1984-style society of fear and oppression! What an idiot.

 

http://www.washingtontimes.com/blog/inside...es-kim-jong-un/

 

Former President Jimmy Carter has sent North Korea a message of condolence over the death of Kim Jong-il and wished "every success" to the man expected to take over as dictator, according to the communist country's state-run news agency.

 

A dispatch from the Korean Central News Agency (KCNA) said Mr. Carter sent the message to Kim Jong-un, Kim Jong-il's son and heir apparent.

 

"In the message Jimmy Carter extended condolences to Kim Jong Un and the Korean people over the demise of leader Kim Jong Il. He wished Kim Jong Un every success as he assumes his new responsibility of leadership, looking forward to another visit to [North Korea] in the future," the KCNA dispatch read.

 

When contacted by The Washington Times for comment, the Carter Center provided an email contact to a spokeswoman who is out of the office until the New Year.

 

North Korea is routinely labeled as one of the world's most oppressive governments under an eccentric personality cult surrounding the Kim family. Harrowing reports from defectors describe North Korea as a dirt-poor nation filled with concentration camps and Communist propaganda. Kim Jong-il ran the reclusive country according to a "military first" policy since the mid-1990s, after a famine that may have killed as many as 2 million people.

 

Mr. Carter has visited North Korea twice — including a 1994 visit for talks on nuclear issues that led to a deal in which North Korea agreed to dismantle its nuclear-weapons program in exchange for oil deliveries and the construction of two nuclear reactors. That deal collapsed in 2002.

 

The former U.S. president also downplayed a 2010 North Korean attack on a South Korean island and disclosure of a uranium enrichment facility, saying the acts were merely "designed to remind the world that they deserve respect in negotiations that will shape their future."

[Balta1701]

Have "great success" running that 1984-style society of fear and oppression! What an idiot.

 

http://www.washingtontimes.com/blog/inside...es-kim-jong-un/

There is absolutely nothing wrong with the former president having decent relationships here. As noted in the article you posted, it's been useful in the past as a workaround past official channels.

 

South Korea even sent its condolences.

[Jenksismyhero]

There is absolutely nothing wrong with the former president having decent relationships here. As noted in the article you posted, it's been useful in the past as a workaround past official channels.

 

South Korea even sent its condolences.

 

Come on man, this is totally unacceptable. Send a one line "sorry your dad died" letter, not a "i wish you great success running that terrible country of yours! Keep killing all of your citizens! Keep attacking your neighbors! I understand, you're just trying to remind the world that you exist."

 

Totally inexcusable.

Edited December 21, 2011 by Jenksismybitch

[Balta1701]

Come on man, this is totally unacceptable. Send a one line "sorry your dad died" letter, not a "i wish you great success running that terrible country of yours! Keep killing all of your citizens! Keep attacking your neighbors! I understand, you're just trying to remind the world that you exist."

 

Totally inexcusable.

This is why we can't let Republicans run anything. There's a game to be played here whether it sounds good to you or not. Having an open channel to do things like "Prevent nuclear war" is a good thing, and there's no national pride lost in having that kind of statement come from Jimmy Carter, such that the Koreans know they have negotiation options rather than sending bombs out.

[Soxbadger]

I agree with Balta.

 

Not to mention Carter isnt the President and doesnt have any actual "power" so what possible negative could there be from this. The hope is that Jong-un is not his father and that maybe Carter could act as an intermediary in bringing NK back from isolation.

 

Jong-un could be worse than Il-Jong,he could be better. But nothing wrong with hoping for the best. If you notice, Carter made no reference to Il-Jong's legacy, so Im not sure how you can extrapolate that he was supporting anything Il-Jong did.

 

If anything I believe hes trying to tell Jong-un that he can be different and that the rest of the world is waiting for NK to come out of the dark.

[Milkman delivers]

I agree with Balta.

 

Not to mention Carter isnt the President and doesnt have any actual "power" so what possible negative could there be from this. The hope is that Jong-un is not his father and that maybe Carter could act as an intermediary in bringing NK back from isolation.

 

Jong-un could be worse than Il-Jong,he could be better. But nothing wrong with hoping for the best. If you notice, Carter made no reference to Il-Jong's legacy, so Im not sure how you can extrapolate that he was supporting anything Il-Jong did.

 

If anything I believe hes trying to tell Jong-un that he can be different and that the rest of the world is waiting for NK to come out of the dark.

 

Agreed. But let's not turn this into a political discussion. It should remain as it was intended, a celebration of the death of a piece of human trash.

[southsider2k5]

There is absolutely nothing wrong with the former president having decent relationships here. As noted in the article you posted, it's been useful in the past as a workaround past official channels.

 

South Korea even sent its condolences.

 

Then the question becomes, was this an action on behalf of the administration?

[Jenksismyhero]

This is why we can't let Republicans run anything. There's a game to be played here whether it sounds good to you or not. Having an open channel to do things like "Prevent nuclear war" is a good thing, and there's no national pride lost in having that kind of statement come from Jimmy Carter, such that the Koreans know they have negotiation options rather than sending bombs out.

 

This is why we can't let Democrats run anything, because they have no principles. Why not start negotiating with terrorists too. Maybe one day if we bend over enough we'll see eye to eye on our differences.

 

I'm not asking for a negative action in reaction to his death. I'm asking to not be active in wishing a successor to one of the worst leaders in history, whose killed millions of his own people and keep tens of millions more in poverty, 'great success' in continuing that trend. It literally disgusts me that you think this is acceptable, long-term objectives be damned.

 

 

[Jenksismyhero]

I agree with Balta.

 

Not to mention Carter isnt the President and doesnt have any actual "power" so what possible negative could there be from this. The hope is that Jong-un is not his father and that maybe Carter could act as an intermediary in bringing NK back from isolation.

 

Jong-un could be worse than Il-Jong,he could be better. But nothing wrong with hoping for the best. If you notice, Carter made no reference to Il-Jong's legacy, so Im not sure how you can extrapolate that he was supporting anything Il-Jong did.

 

If anything I believe hes trying to tell Jong-un that he can be different and that the rest of the world is waiting for NK to come out of the dark.

 

Why on earth send condolences for the death of a monster? How is that acceptable? Did prior US presidents send the Hitlers a vase of flowers with a card that said sorry for your loss?

[Balta1701]

Why on earth send condolences for the death of a monster? How is that acceptable? Did prior US presidents send the Hitlers a vase of flowers with a card that said sorry for your loss?

Because "Avoiding nuclear war" is also a useful priority.

[Milkman delivers]

This is why we can't let Democrats run anything, because they have no principles. Why not start negotiating with terrorists too. Maybe one day if we bend over enough we'll see eye to eye on our differences.

 

I'm not asking for a negative action in reaction to his death. I'm asking to not be active in wishing a successor to one of the worst leaders in history, whose killed millions of his own people and keep tens of millions more in poverty, 'great success' in continuing that trend. It literally disgusts me that you think this is acceptable, long-term objectives be damned.

 

That's a leap.

[Soxbadger]

Jenks,

 

I dont believe Hitler's son was succeeding him, so you really dont need to send condolences. A similar example would have to be another King or Queen who died and their heir takes over. Furthermore, Carter is not part of the current administration. At the end of the day, regardless of how terrible a person Il-Jong may have been, I hope that his son is better. And I personally give his son a blank slate, I do not think we should start antagonistically and push him. Hes in his 20s and loves MJ, maybe he wants to change NK.

 

You never know what can happen, so in my opinion you always start with hope and work from there.

 

SS2k,

 

Maybe its hard to tell. Ex-Presidents are a strange thing, but my guess is Carter did it on his own.

Edited December 22, 2011 by Soxbadger

[BigSqwert]

Kim Jong-Un Privately Doubting He's Crazy Enough To Run North Korea