Reddy Posted December 22, 2011 Share Posted December 22, 2011 QUOTE (Balta1701 @ Dec 21, 2011 -> 08:14 PM) Because "Avoiding nuclear war" is also a useful priority. thank you. Jenks, this is exactly why John Bolton was a terrible ambassador. Principles will get you blowed the f*** up. It's all a game. Always has been, always will be. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
EvilMonkey Posted December 22, 2011 Share Posted December 22, 2011 There has to be a middle ground here. Carter's note sounds like he wants to take him to dinner. You don't have to say "Good riddance and hope you go soon as well", but you don't have to blow kisses in his ear either. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bmags Posted December 22, 2011 Author Share Posted December 22, 2011 If you want this kid to move toward reforms you don't start by insulting his father, either. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Reddy Posted December 22, 2011 Share Posted December 22, 2011 QUOTE (Alpha Dog @ Dec 22, 2011 -> 10:39 AM) There has to be a middle ground here. Carter's note sounds like he wants to take him to dinner. You don't have to say "Good riddance and hope you go soon as well", but you don't have to blow kisses in his ear either. he didn't actually do that now did he? he wished him success. That's it. How else do you greet a new ruler? This is so dumb to be arguing over. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jenksismyhero Posted December 22, 2011 Share Posted December 22, 2011 QUOTE (Reddy @ Dec 22, 2011 -> 10:01 AM) he didn't actually do that now did he? he wished him success. That's it. How else do you greet a new ruler? This is so dumb to be arguing over. Alpha restated my point - why do ANYTHING? Why say "i'm sorry you lost a crazy evil father who murdered millions of his own people?" Is that gesture really going to stop nuclear war (quite the leap btw)? Is it really going to repair relations? This, coupled with Carters "oh that whole unprovoked attack on the South that killed four people is just a friendly reminder that their nation deserves respect." Come on. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
EvilMonkey Posted December 22, 2011 Share Posted December 22, 2011 QUOTE (Jenksismyb**** @ Dec 22, 2011 -> 11:38 AM) This, coupled with Carters "oh that whole unprovoked attack on the South that killed four people is just a friendly reminder that their nation deserves respect." Come on. That was a pretty dumb thing he had said about that. They just like a gangbanger demanding respect at the end of a gun. What you get isn't respect, it is fear and/or loathing. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bmags Posted December 22, 2011 Author Share Posted December 22, 2011 QUOTE (Jenksismyb**** @ Dec 22, 2011 -> 06:38 PM) Alpha restated my point - why do ANYTHING? Why say "i'm sorry you lost a crazy evil father who murdered millions of his own people?" Is that gesture really going to stop nuclear war (quite the leap btw)? Is it really going to repair relations? This, coupled with Carters "oh that whole unprovoked attack on the South that killed four people is just a friendly reminder that their nation deserves respect." Come on. Jenks, You have a very proud family with nuclear weapons that, clearly, by nature of how they run their country, are completely irrational. If that is the case, and you want them to stop being so insular and stupid, why on earth would you insult their leader during mourning? You aren't talking to your friends, or your coworkers, you are talking to crazy people with atomic weapons. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
farmteam Posted December 22, 2011 Share Posted December 22, 2011 QUOTE (bmags @ Dec 22, 2011 -> 01:26 PM) Jenks, You have a very proud family with nuclear weapons that, clearly, by nature of how they run their country, are completely irrational. If that is the case, and you want them to stop being so insular and stupid, why on earth would you insult their leader during mourning? You aren't talking to your friends, or your coworkers, you are talking to crazy people with atomic weapons. I agree with this, but I also think it's important that we haven't (at least in this thread) seen what Carter's letter actually said; we've only seen what the North Korean Propaganda Machine said the letter said. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jenksismyhero Posted December 22, 2011 Share Posted December 22, 2011 QUOTE (bmags @ Dec 22, 2011 -> 01:26 PM) Jenks, You have a very proud family with nuclear weapons that, clearly, by nature of how they run their country, are completely irrational. If that is the case, and you want them to stop being so insular and stupid, why on earth would you insult their leader during mourning? You aren't talking to your friends, or your coworkers, you are talking to crazy people with atomic weapons. Why say anything at all? I don't understand that. Ignore it. Don't be a dick about it. Don't laugh in the guys face. Just ignore it. Build bridges on a later date that doesn't involve directly or indirectly saying sorry for losing one of the worst leaders in history. And yes, I agree, that this has come from the Ministry of Crazy People, and we don't know exactly what Carter said. However, the fact that he reached out is more than enough for me to think it was incredibly stupid. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Balta1701 Posted December 22, 2011 Share Posted December 22, 2011 QUOTE (Jenksismyb**** @ Dec 22, 2011 -> 03:34 PM) Why say anything at all? I don't understand that. Ignore it. Don't be a dick about it. Don't laugh in the guys face. Just ignore it. Build bridges on a later date that doesn't involve directly or indirectly saying sorry for losing one of the worst leaders in history. And yes, I agree, that this has come from the Ministry of Crazy People, and we don't know exactly what Carter said. However, the fact that he reached out is more than enough for me to think it was incredibly stupid. But you don't think that "No statement" might be interpreted as a deliberate effort to burn a bridge, and could prevent continued talks later? That's exactly why the South Koreans and the US did not offer official statements of sympathy, so as to express their disapproval with the government at a national level. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
southsider2k5 Posted December 22, 2011 Share Posted December 22, 2011 QUOTE (Balta1701 @ Dec 22, 2011 -> 02:36 PM) But you don't think that "No statement" might be interpreted as a deliberate effort to burn a bridge, and could prevent continued talks later? That's exactly why the South Koreans and the US did not offer official statements of sympathy, so as to express their disapproval with the government at a national level. So this is a backdoor attempt at an official statement? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jenksismyhero Posted December 22, 2011 Share Posted December 22, 2011 QUOTE (Balta1701 @ Dec 22, 2011 -> 02:36 PM) But you don't think that "No statement" might be interpreted as a deliberate effort to burn a bridge, and could prevent continued talks later? That's exactly why the South Koreans and the US did not offer official statements of sympathy, so as to express their disapproval with the government at a national level. These people are crazy, who knows what they'll interpret it as, nor do I care. It's wrong. It's having zero principles. It's giving respect to a man that deserves none. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Balta1701 Posted December 22, 2011 Share Posted December 22, 2011 QUOTE (southsider2k5 @ Dec 22, 2011 -> 03:46 PM) So this is a backdoor attempt at an official statement? No, this is a backdoor who is smart enough to realize he should keep his door open, because someday it might be useful, again. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Balta1701 Posted December 22, 2011 Share Posted December 22, 2011 QUOTE (Jenksismyb**** @ Dec 22, 2011 -> 04:05 PM) These people are crazy, who knows what they'll interpret it as, nor do I care. It's wrong. It's having zero principles. It's giving respect to a man that deserves none. You don't care about the behavior of the most erratic nuclear armed-country on Earth? I'd call that equally crazy. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
southsider2k5 Posted December 22, 2011 Share Posted December 22, 2011 QUOTE (Balta1701 @ Dec 22, 2011 -> 03:07 PM) No, this is a backdoor who is smart enough to realize he should keep his door open, because someday it might be useful, again. What does that even mean? Carter is doing it as a favor to Obama even though he didn't want him to, or because he wanted him to? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Balta1701 Posted December 22, 2011 Share Posted December 22, 2011 QUOTE (southsider2k5 @ Dec 22, 2011 -> 04:09 PM) What does that even mean? Carter is doing it as a favor to Obama even though he didn't want him to, or because he wanted him to? Carter is doing a favor for his country, keeping himself open as a back channel that North Korea may be willing to work through in the event of a crisis which needs diffusing through nonmilitary means. So, he's doing it as a favor to Ron Paul for all I care, it's still useful and has been useful in the past at avoiding things like wars. Which apparently some have forgotten...are bad, and should be avoided. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jenksismyhero Posted December 22, 2011 Share Posted December 22, 2011 QUOTE (Balta1701 @ Dec 22, 2011 -> 03:07 PM) You don't care about the behavior of the most erratic nuclear armed-country on Earth? I'd call that equally crazy. If we do nothing in response to his death, we needn't worry about their craziness. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Balta1701 Posted December 22, 2011 Share Posted December 22, 2011 QUOTE (Jenksismyb**** @ Dec 22, 2011 -> 04:14 PM) If we do nothing in response to his death, we needn't worry about their craziness. Yeah, because we haven't had any need to worry about their craziness in the past decade. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
southsider2k5 Posted December 22, 2011 Share Posted December 22, 2011 QUOTE (Balta1701 @ Dec 22, 2011 -> 03:12 PM) Carter is doing a favor for his country, keeping himself open as a back channel that North Korea may be willing to work through in the event of a crisis which needs diffusing through nonmilitary means. So, he's doing it as a favor to Ron Paul for all I care, it's still useful and has been useful in the past at avoiding things like wars. Which apparently some have forgotten...are bad, and should be avoided. Taking it upon yourself to conduct US diplomacy is a pretty big deal. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jenksismyhero Posted December 22, 2011 Share Posted December 22, 2011 QUOTE (Balta1701 @ Dec 22, 2011 -> 03:22 PM) Yeah, because we haven't had any need to worry about their craziness in the past decade. And i'm sure forgetting to express our condolences would have jump started world war 3. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Balta1701 Posted December 22, 2011 Share Posted December 22, 2011 QUOTE (southsider2k5 @ Dec 22, 2011 -> 04:36 PM) Taking it upon yourself to conduct US diplomacy is a pretty big deal. And yet, the Carter Center has been extremely useful for U.S. diplomacy in the past, not just in this area, but in terms of elections and human rights worldwide. Perhaps you'd like to explain how we'd be better off without it? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
StrangeSox Posted December 22, 2011 Share Posted December 22, 2011 QUOTE (southsider2k5 @ Dec 22, 2011 -> 03:09 PM) What does that even mean? Carter is doing it as a favor to Obama even though he didn't want him to, or because he wanted him to? I very strongly doubt that Carter agrees with Obama on a good majority of his foreign policy. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
StrangeSox Posted December 22, 2011 Share Posted December 22, 2011 QUOTE (Jenksismyb**** @ Dec 22, 2011 -> 03:39 PM) And i'm sure forgetting to express our condolences would have jump started world war 3. Jimmy Carter /= US government Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jenksismyhero Posted December 22, 2011 Share Posted December 22, 2011 QUOTE (StrangeSox @ Dec 22, 2011 -> 04:08 PM) Jimmy Carter /= US government Considering he's one of the few US citizens on speaking terms with NK diplomats, he basically is. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
StrangeSox Posted December 22, 2011 Share Posted December 22, 2011 QUOTE (Jenksismyb**** @ Dec 22, 2011 -> 04:29 PM) Considering he's one of the few US citizens on speaking terms with NK diplomats, he basically is. Carter's been doing his own leftist thing for quite a while now, and he's pissed off the US government more than once. It's a bit of a stretch to assume that he speaks for the US government. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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