2012 Cuban signees thread Cespedes/Soler/Concepcion

[Balta1701]

So the Sox don't have what it takes to deal for a potential top-of-the-rotation starter, I can accept that. Viciedo's ceiling mustn't be Vlad Guerrero then.

No, his ceiling can still be an incredible player...but there's a probability factor. The Sox have jerked him around, particularly on defense, a ton, and they still haven't cleared out a reasonable place for him to play next year. The probability of him getting to where he could get isn't 100%.

 

Same reason you're not already labeling Chris Sale a #1 pitcher/cy young award winner. He absolutely has the stuff to be that guy...but no one knows how his arm will hold up over 150+ innings. If guys always hit their ceilings, we'd be laughing at you for saying we needed an extra #1 starter with a guy who has the raw stuff of Sale on the roster.

[caulfield12]

Viciedo=Bobby Bonilla

 

Forget the Vladimir Guerrero comparisons, a HOF career is pretty unlikely.

 

 

[Balta1701]

Viciedo=Bobby Bonilla

 

Forget the Vladimir Guerrero comparisons, a HOF career is pretty unlikely.

Bobby Bonilla was a 6 time all star, 3 time silver slugger, 1 time MVP runner up, who put up an .862 OPS over 10 seasons, playing in parks that weren't hitters parks. If he played those seasons in Boston, or he stayed healthy after he hit 34, or he didn't have a down year right when he arrived with the Mets, or if he didn't play in the steroid era, people would be talking about him as a borderline HOF candidate.

[ScottyDo]

Don't kid yourself the rotation hasn't been good enough either. Rios and Dunn are going nowhere and there is at least some hope for Beckham.

Rnk(AL)    R/G    R/G Against (rotation)
2011           11th    7th
2010           7th    8th
2009           12th    2nd
2008           5th    6th
2007           14th    11th

 

Long story short, you're mostly right that the rotation hasn't been wonderful. However, we play in a hitter's park and 3 of the last 5 years we have been in the bottom 4 teams in the AL in runs scored. We have little to no power in the pipelines, while we have a few decent pitching prospects. All our power/production last year came from a guy in his mid 30's who will not be around much longer. Once PK's gone, I shudder to think what our offense will look like. With Viciedo and CQ out, too...who is gonna hit in the middle of our order? Are we seriously gonna have a 3-4-5 of Morel/Flowers/??? ?

 

EDIT: I shouldn't say that we have a few decent pitching prospects, I should say that we have long-term control over a few decent young pitchers. Prospects would imply that they're in the minors, which are mostly barren.

Edited December 24, 2011 by ScottyDo

[Chicago White Sox]

Viciedo=Bobby Bonilla

 

Forget the Vladimir Guerrero comparisons, a HOF career is pretty unlikely.

We don't need him to have a HOF career, we just need him to be an all-star type talent and legit #3 or #4 hitter. He's more than capable of that, and considering we have only one other player in the entire system that even has that potential (Thompson, who's a huge longshot), we are not at liberty to trade Viciedo for pitching. I know offense is easier to fill, but we still need have to have some cost-controlled players to build the lineup around.

 

As for Cespedes, he makes perect sense for us, given his immense potential and the lack of talent in our system. I understand that a lot of people want to give De Aza a chance as an everyday player, and I'm in that camp, but you don't pass on a player like Cespedes because of him. De Aza would still get a ton of playing time as our fourth outfielder given that all three regulars would be right-handed. Right now, our focus should be on adding young talent that can help us win two to three years from now. Cespedes fits that bill perfectly.

[Balta1701]

Viciedo=Bobby Bonilla

 

Forget the Vladimir Guerrero comparisons, a HOF career is pretty unlikely.

 

 

Bobby Bonilla was a 6 time all star, 3 time silver slugger, 1 time MVP runner up, who put up an .862 OPS over 10 seasons, playing in parks that weren't hitters parks. If he played those seasons in Boston, or he stayed healthy after he hit 34, or he didn't have a down year right when he arrived with the Mets, or if he didn't play in the steroid era, people would be talking about him as a borderline HOF candidate.

Got a better one.

 

Bobby Bonilla's OPS in full seasons until he started breaking down was .859. His ballpark adjusted OPS+ in that time is 133.

 

Paul Konerko's OPS with the White Sox is .866. His ballpark adjusted OPS+ in that time is 123.

 

Bobby Bonilla for a decade was a significantly stronger offensive force than Paul Konerko has been with the White Sox. If Viciedo's comp is Bobby Bonilla, that would be spectacular. If he had a 10 year stretch like Bobby Bonilla, he'd have a statue.

[Quin]

Go with an OF of Cespedes-De Aza- Viciedo. Rios rots on the bench or gets shipped for another bad deal.

[Dick Allen]

Viciedo=Bobby Bonilla

 

Forget the Vladimir Guerrero comparisons, a HOF career is pretty unlikely.

Didn't Hawk the GM get skewered for trading Bobby Bonilla a guy he picked up in the rule 5 for Jose DeLeon?

[Marty34]

We don't need him to have a HOF career, we just need him to be an all-star type talent and legit #3 or #4 hitter. He's more than capable of that, and considering we have only one other player in the entire system that even has that potential (Thompson, who's a huge longshot), we are not at liberty to trade Viciedo for pitching. I know offense is easier to fill, but we still need have to have some cost-controlled players to build the lineup around.

 

Production from corner OF spots should be far down the list of priorities for a big-spending team like the Sox. Those guys can be found easier than SP.

 

[Quin]

Production from corner OF spots should be far down the list of priorities for a big-spending team like the Sox. Those guys can be found easier than SP.

 

And SSs are so easy to find?

[Marty34]

And SSs are so easy to find?

 

What are you talking about?

[Balta1701]

What are you talking about?

The fact that the only real trade piece for a top pitcher we have is Alexei.

[Marty34]

The fact that the only real trade piece for a top pitcher we have is Alexei.

 

If that's true deal him. He's on the wrong side of 30.

[Springfield Soxfan]

Go with an OF of Cespedes-De Aza- Viciedo. Rios rots on the bench or gets shipped for another bad deal.

Could not agree more, we are beyond the point with him where we are forced to play him.........

[Balta1701]

If that's true deal him. He's on the wrong side of 30.

As I just said a moment ago, if the Sox could get the kind of value for him we'd demand in return, which is built around a top level pitching prospect, we'd do that.

 

But the teams who could give that guy up aren't doing so right now for this SS, and if we don't get that kind of return it makes no sense to move him.

[caulfield12]

Production from corner OF spots should be far down the list of priorities for a big-spending team like the Sox. Those guys can be found easier than SP.

 

 

We haven't done a great job of it, exactly.

 

Borchard, Nick Swisher, Josh Fields (he was a "corner" player when they drafted him, they just didn't know it yet), Ryan Sweeney, Adam Dunn, Juan Pierre, Alex Rios (still think RF is his true position, he just can't hit enough for the corner), etc.

 

About the only guy who has been a success in our park offensively has been Carlos Quentin, and we can't really take any credit for developing him. DeAza, we just scrounged him up off the waiver wire.

 

 

Viciedo obviously has a shot as well. Flowers, maybe but doubtful.

 

But clearly, we've had a horrible time developing ANY impact bats the last decade, as well as finding a true prototypical leadoff hitter/CF type.

 

As mentioned earlier, you trade Alexei Ramirez ONLY for a blockbuster package, because there's no reason to dump that contract at all and there's no suitable replacement for him unless you want to return to the Ozzie Guillen offensive years in Old Comiskey of 1985-1989, where Ivan Calderon and Carlos Martinez were offensive standouts comparatively.

Edited December 25, 2011 by caulfield12

[SOXOBAMA]

http://hardballtalk.nbcsports.com/2011/12/..._medium=twitter

 

 

Between this winter’s trades of closer Sergio Santos and outfielder Carlos Quentin, the White Sox have slashed around $10 million in payroll. Could they be gearing up for something (or someone) special?

 

Perhaps. Maybe. Potentially.

 

Bruce Levine of ESPN Chicago expects the White Sox to take part in the bidding for Cuban outfielder Yoenis Cespedes, who is scheduled to become a major league free agent sometime in early January.

 

White Sox GM Kenny Williams did not shoot down that idea when speaking with reporters Saturday:

 

“What I will say is there are some doors that are now open for us that were not open yesterday because of the savings of dollars,” Williams said. “But which direction we are heading with that, [talking about it] I think would be counterproductive with us getting something done should we decide to go down that road.”

The White Sox are likely to have competition from the Cubs, Marlins, Yankees and Red Sox, but they have a good history with recruiting Cuban talent and would seem to have some available spending cash.

 

Cespedes, 26, batted .333/.424/.667 with 33 home runs and 99 RBI in 90 games this past year in Cuba.

 

[Princess Dye]

I can't really look into this myself since I've begun drinking Tank 7s tonight..... but can we look at those Cuban stats for Cespedes and say Alexei's Cuban stats were against comparable competition? Is there some way of finding this out?

[103 mph screwball]

"So we can take some of that little bit of payroll we cleared and invest it in something that helps the Major League club now, or something that helps on the horizon with another prospect. We could end up making this a 3-for-1 deal instead of a 2-for-1, albeit with two guys we really like."

 

Reading between the lines, I hope this means Cespedes! Hope we didn't scare him away by trading for a player named Castro.

[caulfield12]

I can't really look into this myself since I've begun drinking Tank 7s tonight..... but can we look at those Cuban stats for Cespedes and say Alexei's Cuban stats were against comparable competition? Is there some way of finding this out?

 

 

They played in the same league, so comparable.

 

The problem is that Ramirez was seriously underrated because of 1) his lack of a clear position defensively (he was actually capable all over the field, which worked against him) and his slight frame.

 

Everyone in baseballs knows/knew about Viciedo, Cespedes, Gourriel, Soler, etc.

 

Just don't see the White Sox winning a bidding war...although if anyone is in a position to judge how much he's worth and how good he really is, it's the likes of Contreras, El Duque, Alexei and Tank.

 

Surely, Williams has talked extensively (through interpreters) to both of our current Cuban players about the pro's and con's of acquiring him, and what he brings to the table.

[Lillian]

If Cespedes gets $50 million from someone, for how many years would it likely be?

[Balta1701]

If Cespedes gets $50 million from someone, for how many years would it likely be?

The last 3 big guys to sign in this sort of pattern out of Cuba (Alexei, Viciedo, Chapman) signed contracts that were basically "rookie" contracts, where the team commits x number of dollars, but then has control of that player until they would normally become free agents. So, the team would get 6-7 years of control of the player once he gets to the big leagues.

 

A team could always write the deal to allow them to become a FA earlier, but the recent trend has been against that. That's what the Yankees did with Contreras's original deal; the team was required to cut him loose after the deal ended regardless of accumulated service time. That has not been the case with these last guys.

 

So, if a team signed him, kept him in the minors for 1.5 years, called him up mid-2013, they'd have him under control until ~2019 assuming they offered him arbitration every year.

[Quin]

If Floyd and Thornton are gone before Cespedes signs, I'd say the chances we sign him go up insanely in light of Frasor.

[caulfield12]

The last 3 big guys to sign in this sort of pattern out of Cuba (Alexei, Viciedo, Chapman) signed contracts that were basically "rookie" contracts, where the team commits x number of dollars, but then has control of that player until they would normally become free agents. So, the team would get 6-7 years of control of the player once he gets to the big leagues.

 

A team could always write the deal to allow them to become a FA earlier, but the recent trend has been against that. That's what the Yankees did with Contreras's original deal; the team was required to cut him loose after the deal ended regardless of accumulated service time. That has not been the case with these last guys.

 

So, if a team signed him, kept him in the minors for 1.5 years, called him up mid-2013, they'd have him under control until ~2019 assuming they offered him arbitration every year.

 

 

Are his salary raises in years 4-6 based on his contract numbers preceding it (not being able to cut more than 15%, etc.) or based on a statistical formula for what guys all around baseball SHOULD be making in those years, such as Danks/Quentin/Crede/Jenks, etc., when they were with the Sox and going back and forth with just one year deals and no long-term extensions? What would/could we predict Viciedo's 2014 salary at? It can't be based on the increase from his small (relatively) salary next year...?

[Balta1701]

Are his salary raises in years 4-6 based on his contract numbers preceding it (not being able to cut more than 15%, etc.) or based on a statistical formula for what guys all around baseball SHOULD be making in those years, such as Danks/Quentin/Crede/Jenks, etc., when they were with the Sox and going back and forth with just one year deals and no long-term extensions? What would/could we predict Viciedo's 2014 salary at? It can't be based on the increase from his small (relatively) salary next year...?

I'm almost certain that it's based on his previous year's salary until he reaches arbitration-eligibility.