2011-2012 NBA Season Thread

[southsider2k5]

http://espn.go.com/blog/truehoop/post/_/id...-team-with-melo

 

Since the celebrated Carmelo Anthony trade 11 months ago, the New York Knicks have won 20 regular-season games and lost 21.

 

That doesn’t sound so great, but it gets worse:

• The Knicks also lost four straight in the playoffs, winning none.
• The Knicks didn’t get Chris Paul. Many fans and observers believed getting Melo put the Knicks closer to obtaining CP3, who is known to have wanted to play in New York. (Remember the famous wedding toast.) But by maxing out Melo, the Knicks made that nearly impossible. Now CP3 is a Clipper until 2013 and probably beyond.
• The Nuggets are winning: They’re 26-12 since shipping out Melo, much better than the 32-25 record they posted with him last season.
• The Knicks are 16th in Marc Stein’s Power Rankings, and ranked 20th in the NBA according to John Hollinger; the Nuggets are 8th for Stein, 11th for Hollinger.
• The Knicks have a losing record and negative scoring margin this season despite having played the third-easiest schedule in the league.
• The Knicks are ranked 22nd in offensive efficiency, even though Melo and Tyson Chandler are posting easily the highest PERs of their respective careers.
• The Knicks would be seeded No. 8 in the East if the playoffs started today, and would play the top-seeded Bulls.
• The Knicks don’t own their first-round draft pick in 2012 or 2014, and might have to swap 2016 first-round picks with Denver.
• Danilo Gallinari, a rising young star the Knicks traded away along with five other players and three draft picks to get Melo, was a local favorite, and he criticized the trade last week, telling the New York Daily News, “I thought we were having a really good season [last year]. … People were having fun coming to see the games. … We had a positive record, the excitement was there.”

 

Maybe it gets better from here. Maybe they solves the chemistry issues. Maybe Baron Davis is the savior.

 

But facts are facts: The Carmelo Anthony Knicks aren’t very good.

 

The Knicks just aren't that good. B rate star pairings aren't going to change that.

 

[Boogua]

He's no LeBron, obviously. But he's a pretty sweet consolation prize. I've never, ever seen this many electrifying PGs in the league all at the same time. Rose, Wall (who dropped 38 last night), Rondo, Deron, Irving, Paul, Westbrook, Conley, Lawson, Rubio and probably a couple others I'm forgetting.

 

There's a reason why all these guys are "electrifying". The reason is today's NBA is pretty much a joke. I still watch and I'm still a huge Bulls fan, but the game has gotten so much worse from the 90s. Ever since they implemented the handcheck rule in 04-05 the game has been a guard dominant league. It was only a matter of time before it became a PG dominated league because they are the quickest guys on the court and can take full advantage of the rules. There's only a few on that list that can actually hit a consistent jump shot. It's a joke.

[Felix]

There's a reason why all these guys are "electrifying". The reason is today's NBA is pretty much a joke. I still watch and I'm still a huge Bulls fan, but the game has gotten so much worse from the 90s. Ever since they implemented the handcheck rule in 04-05 the game has been a guard dominant league. It was only a matter of time before it became a PG dominated league because they are the quickest guys on the court and can take full advantage of the rules. There's only a few on that list that can actually hit a consistent jump shot. It's a joke.

"Huge Bulls fan" complaining about point guards that are quick and can't hit jump shots?

 

I'm so confused right now.

[MexSoxFan#1]

that or those posts were drowned out by the "He can't win a title on his own" posts. Sports fans are cute, you're either a wuss for not being able to carry a team on your own, or you suck because you don't want to go to where the winning is at.

When I think of winning basketball, the Heat didn't exactly register (talking about pre LBJ, they won one title thanks to the refs).

[Boogua]

"Huge Bulls fan" complaining about point guards that are quick and can't hit jump shots?

 

I'm so confused right now.

 

Why's that? Derrick Rose actually has a pretty good midrange jump shot. He just tends to fall in love with shooting 3s. With that said, I will still gladly concede the fact that Derrick Rose wouldn't have averaged 25 and 8, at that age, even 10 years ago.

[Felix]

Why's that? Derrick Rose actually has a pretty good midrange jump shot. He just tends to fall in love with shooting 3s. With that said, I will still gladly concede the fact that Derrick Rose wouldn't have averaged 25 and 8, at that age, even 10 years ago.

How are we defining "pretty good"? Rose shot 42% from 10-15 feet last year (league average was 40%). He shot 50% from that range in 2009-10, so that'd be pretty good, especially since it was a drastic improvement over his 38% mark from that range as a rookie. In his career (including his 31% mark from that range this year), that'd be 42%, which is basically average.

Edited January 17, 2012 by Felix

[Steve9347]

Totally unrelated, but Kevin Love is shooting over 5 threes per game this year? Wow. I've only seen a couple T-Wolves games, Felix, but is he spending a ton of time behind the three point line?

 

It's absolutely insane that he can jack up so many 3's (while hitting 36%, no less) yet still average over 14 boards. What a freak.

[Steve9347]

How are we defining "pretty good"? Rose shot 42% from 10-15 feet last year (league average was 40%). He shot 50% from that range in 2009-10, so that'd be pretty good, especially since it was a drastic improvement over his 38% mark from that range as a rookie. In his career (including his 31% mark from that range this year), that'd be 42%, which is basically average.

Yeah, we all get it. Rose isn't shooting 50%. He shoots a f***ton, but thankfully the little mix of game he brings is enough to be one of the more dominant players in the game (when healthy).

 

A Bulls fan, by the way, can absolutely adore Derrick Rose, while also understanding the faults of his game. The final package remains one of the absolute most valuable in the game today.

[Felix]

Totally unrelated, but Kevin Love is shooting over 5 threes per game this year? Wow. I've only seen a couple T-Wolves games, Felix, but is he spending a ton of time behind the three point line?

 

It's absolutely insane that he can jack up so many 3's (while hitting 36%, no less) yet still average over 14 boards. What a freak.

He's been doing pick and pops with Rubio (and Ridnour to an extent) a lot this year. It's taken a hit on his efficiency, but his usage rate has jumped as well so that's to be expected somewhat.

 

Yeah, we all get it. Rose isn't shooting 50%. He shoots a f***ton, but thankfully the little mix of game he brings is enough to be one of the more dominant players in the game (when healthy).

 

A Bulls fan, by the way, can absolutely adore Derrick Rose, while also understanding the faults of his game. The final package remains one of the absolute most valuable in the game today.

That wasn't a critique of Rose at all. I just find it funny that someone can actually be complaining about the state of the NBA (lots of good point guards that rely on their quickness and are inconsistent shooters), and then at the same time claim to be a huge Bulls fan (who rely heavily on their quick, inconsistent shooting point guard). You seriously don't see the hilarity in that?

[Boogua]

How are we defining "pretty good"? Rose shot 42% from 10-15 feet last year (league average was 40%). He shot 50% from that range in 2009-10, so that'd be pretty good, especially since it was a drastic improvement over his 38% mark from that range as a rookie. In his career (including his 31% mark from that range this year), that'd be 42%, which is basically average.

 

His 42% last year would have still have him above Deron, Conley, Wall, Rondo, and Felton. It would also have him just about equal with Paul. Two years ago when he was carrying less of the load and was taking efficient shots we saw how much better his midrange game was. Whatever. A Ricky Rubio type player wouldn't even have been in the league 10-15 years ago. Look at Nash's first 4 or so seasons. That would have been Rubio.

[Felix]

His 42% last year would have still have him above Deron, Conley, Wall, Rondo, and Felton. It would also have him just about equal with Paul. Two years ago when he was carrying less of the load and was taking efficient shots we saw how much better his midrange game was. Whatever. A Ricky Rubio type player wouldn't even have been in the league 10-15 years ago. Look at Nash's first 4 or so seasons. That would have been Rubio.

Have you heard of Jason Kidd before?

[Boogua]

Have you heard of Jason Kidd before?

 

Haha, I knew he would come up. Kidd was pretty solidly built though and a very physical guard. Look at his rebound numbers. Rubio and Kidd aren't the same player. Rubio is much closer to Nash stylistically, sans the jumpshot. Kidd is also one of the few guys that could get away with that style of play too.

 

The wolves have two guys, in Barea and Rubio, that show how the NBA has gotten bad. Don't get me wrong, they're fine in today's game, especially Rubio it looks like, but they wouldn't have been very good players in the past. It is what it is. Derrick Rose wouldn't win an MVP in the past either. Although with his size, speed, and athleticism I think he could have possibly been a Zeke type player (if he focused on passing) or an AI type (if he solely focused on scoring).

 

There's tons of evidence showing how that handcheck rule changed the NBA. There was a reason that they had to implement it too, obviously. The players could no longer score at a high level under the old rules (due to lack of fundamentals).

[Steve9347]

There's tons of evidence showing how that handcheck rule changed the NBA. There was a reason that they had to implement it too, obviously. The players could no longer score at a high level under the old rules (due to lack of fundamentals).

It's almost comical every time CSN airs a Bulls game from the playoffs in the 2nd threepeat. Every game winds up something like 88-85. The game today is quite entertaining... and guys like Rose (obviously) and Rubio are big reasons it gets more fun to watch with each passing moment.

 

Just sit back and enjoy the evolution of the game.

[Boogua]

It's almost comical every time CSN airs a Bulls game from the playoffs in the 2nd threepeat. Every game winds up something like 88-85. The game today is quite entertaining... and guys like Rose (obviously) and Rubio are big reasons it gets more fun to watch with each passing moment.

 

Just sit back and enjoy the evolution of the game.

 

Because the Bulls were much older and played in the half court almost exclusively. Look at the first 3 peat teams. Do you think today's NBA is more entertaining than that one? I agree that today's NBA can be entertaining, although frustrating, but I don't know if I'd describe it as evolving.

[Steve9347]

Look at the first 3 peat teams. Do you think today's NBA is more entertaining than that one?

Absolutely. I feel right now is a new Golden Age in the NBA, whereas that threepeat team was just outside the last Golden Age.

[Felix]

Haha, I knew he would come up. Kidd was pretty solidly built though and a very physical guard. Look at his rebound numbers. Rubio and Kidd aren't the same player. Rubio is much closer to Nash stylistically, sans the jumpshot. Kidd is also one of the few guys that could get away with that style of play too.

Have you ever watched Rubio play (or looked at his rebounding numbers)? He rebounds very well for a point guard and has a 7.8 TRB% this year (one of the top marks for point guards). Kidd definitely rebounds much better offensively given the extra bulk, but Rubio is certainly not a delicate little flower that shys away from contact. In fact, as this season has progressed opposing guards have actually become very physical with Rubio and he hasn't let it take him out of his game. I'm not saying Rubio is Jason Kidd because obviously Kidd was an outstanding player, but he has a very all-around game.

 

There's tons of evidence showing how that handcheck rule changed the NBA. There was a reason that they had to implement it too, obviously. The players could no longer score at a high level under the old rules (due to lack of fundamentals).

I've never disagreed with any of this, as it's very obviously true to anyone that has ever watched the league.

Edited January 17, 2012 by Felix

[Steve9347]

Rubio is certainly not a delicate little flower that shys away from contact. In fact, as this season has progressed opposing guards have actually become very physical with Rubio and he hasn't let it take him out of his game.

Given the league he's played in the past two seasons, the NBA must seem like playing with a bunch of gentlemen. Yeah, if he can play there, dude isn't too concerned with a little contact here and there.

[Boogua]

Absolutely. I feel right now is a new Golden Age in the NBA, whereas that threepeat team was just outside the last Golden Age.

 

In terms of story lines I guess I'd have to agree with you. I just get frustrated with this topic because I hate when I see guys like Steve Nash be put up there with all time greats, when I don't think his game translates well at all to the 90s. I understand that he was fantastic in this era. Both MVPs came directly after the handcheck rule was implemented though (coincidence?). I think the early 90s was the golden age in terms of skill+athleticism and I always wonder how guys from that era would translate to today's era. I mean, I can't even begin to think of what KJ would be in today's NBA. It's a scary thought. And he's just one guy.

 

Sorry if it seems like I'm trolling. And Felix, I'm glad you made that last comment. That's all I was really looking for.

[Steve9347]

Sorry if it seems like I'm trolling.

Not at all. Please keep posting. This is good discussion.

[Brian]

Have you ever watched Rubio play (or looked at his rebounding numbers)? He rebounds very well for a point guard and has a 7.8 TRB% this year (one of the top marks for point guards).

 

This is why I am not a fan of sabermetrics in basketball. Rubio averaged 4 rebounds a game but the above stat makes it seem like he gets more.

 

Rubio has surpassed expectations based on his awful last year over seas. Great passer, great court vision. Is he expected to be some big scorer at the position like Rose or Paul? Doubt it.

[LittleHurt05]

NBA GM Survey

[Felix]

This is why I am not a fan of sabermetrics in basketball. Rubio averaged 4 rebounds a game but the above stat makes it seem like he gets more.

So you don't like advanced stats in basketball because you don't understand them? Ever think about educating yourself on them? They're very interesting (albeit not perfected). A 7.8 TRB% just means that Rubio grabs 1 out of every 13 or so rebounds. That doesn't seem like a particularly large number at all for most players (i.e. forwards), but for a point guard it's pretty good.

 

Also, Rubio isn't expected to be a scorer because that's not his style of play. He's a pass first player and always will be. However, he will control the game (and has already shown that this season).

Edited January 17, 2012 by Felix

[southsider2k5]

NBA GM Survey

 

Biggest shock

 

If you were starting a franchise and could sign any player, who would it be?

 

T1. Kevin Durant, Oklahoma City -- 37.0%

T1. LeBron James, Miami -- 37.0%

3. Derrick Rose, Chicago -- 14.8%

4. Dwight Howard, Orlando -- 7.4%

5. Dwyane Wade, Miami -- 3.7%

[Balta1701]

Biggest shock

 

If you were starting a franchise and could sign any player, who would it be?

 

T1. Kevin Durant, Oklahoma City -- 37.0%

T1. LeBron James, Miami -- 37.0%

3. Derrick Rose, Chicago -- 14.8%

4. Dwight Howard, Orlando -- 7.4%

5. Dwyane Wade, Miami -- 3.7%

How is that shocking? That Wade got 3.7% (aka 1 GM?)

[Jordan4life_2007]

NBA GM Survey

 

Kobe's one of the top 10-12 players to ever play the game. But god f*** is his defense epically overrated. It's borderline Jeter.