2011-2012 NBA Season Thread

[Kyyle23]

Kobe: I have had no rivals in my career, all I am doing is chasing history

[Kyyle23]

An interesting take on Lebron by Deadspin

 

Following the Miami Heat loss to the Utah Jazz, a loss in which LeBron scored 17 in the fourth quarter but passed on the final possession, the argument goes like this: "It was the right 'basketball' play, but I would like to see LeBron take that shot." Or, as ESPN's resident basketball-as-played in-a-vacuum analyst Jon Barry put it: "Great basketball play? Yes. Bad timing? Absolutely." This, in a nutshell, is the story of LeBron's career as told by talking heads. And this, in a nutshell, is total bulls***.

 

Putting aside the very legitimate argument that the Heat would not have been in a position to win the game without LeBron making two huge three-point shots in the final minute (or the equally legitimate argument that they may not have been in a position to lose the game without Dwyane Wade forgetting he played basketball and not hockey), do you want to have your cake, or eat it? To criticize a player for doing the right thing but, by definition, wishing he did the wrong thing is about the most disingenuous thing a fan or pundit can do. Aside from claiming the play was correct but for when it occurred, that is.

 

The respect of sports fans—and those who are paid to tell sports fans what to think—is gained in one of two ways: being so awe-inspiringly good one can only shake his head in disbelief or playing the game the "right way." We love superstars and we love team players. LeBron James by most accounts is both and can't seem to win either way.

 

LeBron is a physical specimen capable of doing just about anything on the court himself yet he also understands how to play basketball within a team structure. He is praised for his "court vision" and can pass and find the open man. What's more, he is willing to give it up to the open man when he finds him. Udonis Haslem was wide open and LeBron James was double covered. That is why it was the "right basketball play." That is why he passed the ball. Players are routinely praised for unselfish, team-oriented play yet whenever a superstar does it, he gets labelled "soft," "unclutch" or lacking in that "killer instinct."

 

The superstar is thus put in the most untenable of situations. He must be successful at all times, by himself. If Lebron took the shot and made it, LeBron and the Heat would have done exactly what is expected: beat the Jazz in March. If he took the shot and missed, the story would be LeBron forcing a shot because of the All-Star Game debacle. And when he passed it up, he's weak but with the all but irrelevant caveat that he made the right decision. This kind of framework makes it impossible to appreciate the very greatness that created it.

 

It's fun to hate on LeBron because of his poor Decision-making and the ridiculous introduction ceremony performance, but let's be honest about it. Let's kill LeBron when he actually screws up. If he has an atrocious performance in a playoff game, let him have it. Just remember that somehow it has become impossible to be both great and play with all the other qualities we respect, admire and often wish our superstars exhibited.

[Jordan4life_2007]

You're right, he doesn't get the benefit of the doubt. When he's the clear best player in the league, his team isn't supposed to lose at the end of the game after he gets the ball in his hands.

 

When that happens...repeatedly...it's going to fall on him.

 

Repeatedly as in the finals. He was never criticized before that. Hell, he chewed up Boston and Chicago last year in clutch situations.

[Balta1701]

No... well.. not to true peeps who have been getting on him about that for a long time now. Hell he's done that before (when it seemed like Mo Williams was the only one bailing him out for actually taking/making the shot and now DWade) but it's something he'll continue to have over him. He has the will/drive in final stretches, but not the killer instinct.

 

 

Repeatedly as in the finals. He was never criticized before that. Hell, he chewed up Boston and Chicago last year in clutch situations.

It wasn't just last year in the finals. That was just sorta a nice crescendo after the "Decision". People have said things like that for years. Last year in the finals wasn't his first disappearance (Remember the Celtics pre-decision?) and there's another guy right there talking about Lebron being bailed out by the dominant talent that was Mo Williams.

[Jordan4life_2007]

It wasn't just last year in the finals. That was just sorta a nice crescendo after the "Decision". People have said things like that for years. Last year in the finals wasn't his first disappearance (Remember the Celtics pre-decision?) and there's another guy right there talking about Lebron being bailed out by the dominant talent that was Mo Williams.

 

But then you had the game 5 against the Pistons in '07 when he scored their last 29 or 30 points or whatever it was. He scored 45 against the Celtics in game 7 in '08. What about the game 2 miracle against the Magic in '09? And then the aforementioned Boston/Chicago series last year. He's had plenty of big game, clutch moments.

 

Yes, I know they lost that game 7 in '08. But LeBron did everything he could. They had no business being in a game 7 against that great Boston team.

Edited March 3, 2012 by Jordan4life

[Kyyle23]

But then you had the game 5 against the Pistons in '07 when he scored their last 29 or 30 points or whatever it was. He scored 45 against the Celtics in game 7 in '08. What about the game 2 miracle against the Magic in '09? And then the aforementioned Boston/Chicago series last year. He's had plenty of big game, clutch moments.

 

It seems the criticism he is taking is about the last minute game winning shot situations, not his body of work through the 4th quarter.

[Balta1701]

Yes, I know they lost that game 7 in '08. But LeBron did everything he could. They had no business being in a game 7 against that great Boston team.

Really? Cleveland had more regular season wins than Boston and genuinely looked like they ought to be a better team than Boston until Lebron quit.

[Jordan4life_2007]

It seems the criticism he is taking is about the last minute game winning shot situations, not his body of work through the 4th quarter.

 

And I think some of that is fair. No doubt. Last night was bad. He should've at least taken another dribble. But the all-star stuff was overkill.

[Jordan4life_2007]

Really? Cleveland had more regular season wins than Boston and genuinely looked like they ought to be a better team than Boston until Lebron quit.

 

No. I was talking about '08. The year you're referring to is '10.

[Jenksismyhero]

An interesting take on Lebron by Deadspin

 

I actually agree with this.

 

But you know what? I could care less if the criticism isn't 100% warranted. That's what happens when you label yourself the king without stepping foot on an NBA court and demand the world's attention. f*** Lebron.

[DukeNukeEm]

At this point its pretty clear unselfishness is not why LeBron defaults himself in the 4th, its because he's scared. That's one thing you definitely do not want your superstar to be.

Edited March 3, 2012 by DukeNukeEm

[Kyyle23]

At this point its pretty clear unselfishness is not why LeBron defaults himself in the 4th, its because he's scared. That's one thing you definitely do not want your superstar to be.

 

Lebron is many things, I would not count "scared" as one of them.

[Quin]

Lebron is many things, I would not count "scared" as one of them.

 

I'd say in the last 30 seconds of the game, he's terrified.

[Kyyle23]

I'd say in the last 30 seconds of the game, he's terrified.

 

I don't know about that. Lebron has taken and made plenty of game winning shots, and he has missed plenty as well. So has Kobe. So did MJ. I think Lebron is starting to get a complex about the final minute, It seems as if he is over thinking it a lot and doing abnormal things. I agree with him, he can't win. I enjoy it because I want the Heat to fail and Bulls to get ahead because of it, but I think a lot of the talk about him in the final minute has been really overblown. I certainly don't think he is scared, though.

[Jordan4life_2007]

I'd say in the last 30 seconds of the game, he's terrified.

 

I'd go with unsure. Michael and Kobe, unless you ran/run a hard double team at them, they're shooting. LeBron is more unselfish than both of them. But that can obviously be a bad thing.

[Balta1701]

I don't know about that. Lebron has taken and made plenty of game winning shots, and he has missed plenty as well. So has Kobe. So did MJ. I think Lebron is starting to get a complex about the final minute, It seems as if he is over thinking it a lot and doing abnormal things. I agree with him, he can't win. I enjoy it because I want the Heat to fail and Bulls to get ahead because of it, but I think a lot of the talk about him in the final minute has been really overblown. I certainly don't think he is scared, though.

I don't think that it's just the final shot that Lebron is developing a complex over, it's anything where the press starts talkign about him or thinking about him as "the guy".

[Jordan4life_2007]

I don't know about that. Lebron has taken and made plenty of game winning shots, and he has missed plenty as well. So has Kobe. So did MJ. I think Lebron is starting to get a complex about the final minute, It seems as if he is over thinking it a lot and doing abnormal things. I agree with him, he can't win. I enjoy it because I want the Heat to fail and Bulls to get ahead because of it, but I think a lot of the talk about him in the final minute has been really overblown. I certainly don't think he is scared, though.

 

Yes. This. See, I'm not that bad. Kyle calls me out for, well, anything. But I agree totally here. And I want to throw in LeBron had two game winners against the Wizards in the 2006 playoffs. Yes, some of the criticism is legitimate. The other part is people still hating LeBron because of The Decision.

[Kyyle23]

Yes. This. See, I'm not that bad. Kyle calls me out for, well, anything. But I agree totally here. And I want to throw in LeBron had two game winners against the Wizards in the 2006 playoffs. Yes, some of the criticism is legitimate. The other part is people still hating LeBron because of The Decision.

 

If I called you out on anything I would be past SS2K5 in post count

[Jordan4life_2007]

If I called you out on anything I would be past SS2K5 in post count

 

No, sir. You've accused me of not being a real White Sox fan or a Bulls fan. I'm calling out this entire thread, or the people that post in it sans brother Felix and brother Quinarvy. And yes, I am kinda drunk. But I will be reasonable. I am held to a different standard around these parts. If I say anything that could be looked at as going against the Bulls, I'm either dismissed as a troll, a hater, or not a real fan. Example number 1: Duke says he wouldn't trade Luol Deng for Dwight Howard straight up. WTF is that? Nobody said s***. Now let me come out and say I'd trade Derrick Rose for Rudy Gay straight up - oh my f***ing god. I'd have to call the cyber crimes unit for the type of abuse I would get here. Example number 2: "the only things MJ does better than Wade is block shots and dunk the basketball." Oh my god. Now let me come out and say the only things Rose does better than, I don't know, Ty Lawson, is dunk and be humble, s***tttttt, again, I'd have to call the cyber pigs. Nobody called 2k5 a troll.. Example number 3: Me saying Carlos Boozer sucks and is a waste of money. EVERYBODY wanted Bosh. So because we had to settle for Carlos Boozer, I can't say anything bad because he's a Bull. Turrible. I will think of more things later.

[Kyyle23]

LMAO. have another drink J4L

[Kyyle23]

And yes, we are pretty hard on you. Sometimes you post some "i just drank a lot" opinions and people cannot refrain from replying. Sometimes you have opinions that are pretty far left of the norm. You dont back down from them, which is commendable, but sometimes the argument gets tired. Duke said what he said, and people said "you are nuts", and he didnt really say much else afterwards except to actually admit "yes, I am nuts". You, on the other hand, wouldnt say that. You would hunker down and argue the point to death, kind of like you did in the offseason when you argued that Kidd was still a superstar because Dallas didnt fit with your opinion that nowadays you need more than one star to win it all. It is what we expect from you. We all argue here, thats what we do.

 

If you didnt notice when it happened, SS2K5 took a tremendous amount of heat for his Jordan comment. Sorry you feel he didnt, but it wasnt just you arguing that Jordan would be far more than merely average in the NBA today.

 

I wont say a word about the Knicks again to you this season, i know it bugs you now, the point has been made.

[Jordan4life_2007]

And yes, we are pretty hard on you. Sometimes you post some "i just drank a lot" opinions and people cannot refrain from replying. Sometimes you have opinions that are pretty far left of the norm. You dont back down from them, which is commendable, but sometimes the argument gets tired. Duke said what he said, and people said "you are nuts", and he didnt really say much else afterwards except to actually admit "yes, I am nuts". You, on the other hand, wouldnt say that. You would hunker down and argue the point to death, kind of like you did in the offseason when you argued that Kidd was still a superstar because Dallas didnt fit with your opinion that nowadays you need more than one star to win it all. It is what we expect from you. We all argue here, thats what we do.

 

If you didnt notice when it happened, SS2K5 took a tremendous amount of heat for his Jordan comment. Sorry you feel he didnt, but it wasnt just you arguing that Jordan would be far more than merely average in the NBA today.

 

I wont say a word about the Knicks again to you this season, i know it bugs you now, the point has been made.

 

Nope. No good. Now yes, I do drink a lot. I'm not worried about my liver. I don't want to live past 60 anyway. Yeah, I can be a little more, I don't know, radical, when I am drinking. But I say what I feel at that time. It's not just alcohol talking. Far as Duke? No. That's bulls***. Nobody said anything to him when he said it. Not sure what happened weeks later. And he doesn't get to play the drunk card (assuming he was drinking on SB Sunday). If I can't play it, even though that's not the case, nobody can. Two, yes, I know a number of people disagreed with 2k5 about the Jordan stuff. But it was all respectable. Nobody came and called him a troll or deemed him not worthy of an opinion. If I said that, it'd get ugly. And you know it. Three, roast me about the Knicks. I was wrong. Badly. That wasn't me hating the Bulls. Yes, I didn't care for the Hamilton signing. But I never said the Knicks were for certain better than the Bulls. I said they had a case. Again, wrong. I can take the Heat. What pisses me off is that I'm somehow a hater, troll, or not a fan.

[qwerty]

This thread is an abomination. Almost always has been. I believe it has traveled so far down the rabbit hole that there is no turning back.

 

I suggest to those of you who you detest this thread to venture out elsewhere for your NBA discussions, essentially nothing can be learned here, let alone trying to expand your mind.

[qwerty]

She is straight nasty bro.

 

Rowands matter of opinion.

 

aka just his type.

 

Southsider2k4 being a douchebag for the sake of being a douchebag.

 

How are these things allowed? So we allow admins and mods to insult, while on the otherhand the site instructs others to do something else entirely different? Seems rather shady if you ask me.

 

I imagine an admin or mod should keep their dicks between their legs at just about all times, unless if they are settling a disagreement between two (or a group of) others.

 

Truly, what a great person to keep this place in line, slings out the insults at the same rate as those who get suspended and eventually banned, but it is just glanced over.

 

Things have to get shook up around at the top... I am certain of it. It's been too stagnant for years now, and the camaraderie at this point is vomit inducing.

 

It's a shame Jason is not around as much, but really, can you blame him?

Edited March 3, 2012 by qwerty

[southsider2k5]

Rowands matter of opinion.

 

 

 

Southsider2k4 being a douchebag for the sake of being a douchebag.

 

How are these things allowed? So we allow admins and mods to insult, while on the otherhand the site instructs others to do something else entirely different? Seems rather shady if you ask me.

 

I imagine an admin or mod should keep their dicks between their legs at just about all times, unless if they are settling a disagreement between two (or a group of) others.

 

Truly, what a great person to keep this place in line, slings out the insults at the same rate as those who get suspended and eventually banned, but it is just glanced over.

 

Things have to get shook up around at the top... I am certain of it. It's been too stagnant for years now, and the camaraderie at this point is vomit inducing.

 

It's a shame Jason is not around as much, but really, can you blame him?

 

Right. Because it was a serious insult. It was a joke. Get over yourself.