2011-2012 NBA Season Thread

[southsider2k5]

When Rose came back in the game it sparked a Miami rally each time. It was the worst game he's ever had as a pro and probably at any level.

 

Hamilton and Noah also did not show up, and they still won somehow. Thibs has to be COY.

 

The Coach of the Year discussion was one of the highlights of the TNT crew. I loved how they pointed out that it was stupid that a coach never wins back to back awards (and never has in the NBA).

[southsider2k5]

Fact:

 

Our second team is better than the Bobcats

 

Hell our second team just beat the Heat.

[southsider2k5]

Or the Bulls can use Rose as a decoy when LBJ is on him, you gotta trust your team mates, Rose doesn't need to do it all himself late in games.

 

It would be nice if Rose could move without the ball, catch a pass and quickly attack the basket from different angles (Wade did this a few times tonight), not just from the top of the key with LBJ squared up on him.

What I see right now is ball movement stopping too often when Rose gets the ball, kinda like Melo...need to stop that.

 

They ran a great offensive set against Millwaukee when they tried trapping Rose, which would work with LeBron guarding him. Bring Noah up to near half court, put the ball in his hands and create the mismatch against Bosh in the open court. Let Jo run the show. He got a triple-double doing it against the Bucks.

[Balta1701]

They ran a great offensive set against Millwaukee when they tried trapping Rose, which would work with LeBron guarding him. Bring Noah up to near half court, put the ball in his hands and create the mismatch against Bosh in the open court. Let Jo run the show. He got a triple-double doing it against the Bucks.

Isn't Bosh going to be a much better away-from-the-basket defender than anything Milwaukee can throw at the Bulls? (At least assuming it's the playoffs and Bosh resumes caring like he did last year). Especially if they can have Haslem/Anthony/Turiaf filling space closer to the hoop at the same time.

[southsider2k5]

Isn't Bosh going to be a much better away-from-the-basket defender than anything Milwaukee can throw at the Bulls? (At least assuming it's the playoffs and Bosh resumes caring like he did last year). Especially if they can have Haslem/Anthony/Turiaf filling space closer to the hoop at the same time.

 

He is not a open floor defender. Very few big men can do that.

[iamshack]

So what are you saying? The Bulls are a better team against the Heat without Rose? Talk to me in the playoffs, and see if they can win a game without him.

 

Lebron couldn't win a championship for his team, is his team better without him?

 

Rose has been terrible the past two games, but give it sometime, he will be back, better and smarter.

I'm saying that when Rose doesn't play well, he brings the Bulls down dramatically more than when another player on the team doesn't play well (this tends to be the nature of teams where the offense runs significantly through one player). Because of Rose's relatively small size, and probably more because of LeBron's freak athletic ability, Rose can't take the ball to the hoop unless he makes a really difficult teardrop (which I know when he is playing well, he makes look easy), and he's not going to hit to many jumpers over LeBron either. The ball doesn't move much and the other players stand around and no one crashes the boards. Because of the way the first team is accustomed to playing with Rose, when LeBron shuts him down, the entire offense comes to a halt...and of course, this creates transition opportunities for Miami and makes it generally more difficult to play defense if you are never scoring on the offensive end.

 

LeBron can't play Rose the entire game, but you know he'll do it during the last 8-10 minutes and the Heat tend to make their run then and close out the game.

 

I don't really know what the solution is, honestly. He has to shift to a different game at that point and look to dish more off that penetration and the corresponding collapsing Heat defense. It seems to me like a guy subbing in a guy like Taj at that point would be beneficial, as he can finish strong at the hole and not fumble and bumble the ball like Noah tends to do. Having Korver in then would help as well as he could spot up around the 3-point line. They don't have enough players to all collapse on Derrick, cover Taj moving to the basket, and leave someone on Korver all the time...

[Balta1701]

Honestly shack, that 10 minutes is what the Bulls need Hamilton for.

 

You have a 2nd option who can make a mid-range jump shot, Boozer down low, and Deng on the other side, if they put Lebron out on Rose, suddenly you have mismatches all over the place. Either the Heat bring in extra size and the Bulls have 2 options who are faster than the Heat at getting to the hoop, or the Heat don't bring in extra size at which point the Bulls control the paint.

 

Hamilton is supposed to provide that floor spacing. If Lebron moves out to the top to deny Rose, then they can't collapse on the paint. If Rose can get by Lebron, then he owns them...if he can't get by Lebron, then he can still collapse that defense and have a shooter.

 

Korver utterly failed in this role last year because he couldn't defend Wade and he couldn't make anything during the playoffs.

[southsider2k5]

I'm saying that when Rose doesn't play well, he brings the Bulls down dramatically more than when another player on the team doesn't play well (this tends to be the nature of teams where the offense runs significantly through one player). Because of Rose's relatively small size, and probably more because of LeBron's freak athletic ability, Rose can't take the ball to the hoop unless he makes a really difficult teardrop (which I know when he is playing well, he makes look easy), and he's not going to hit to many jumpers over LeBron either. The ball doesn't move much and the other players stand around and no one crashes the boards. Because of the way the first team is accustomed to playing with Rose, when LeBron shuts him down, the entire offense comes to a halt...and of course, this creates transition opportunities for Miami and makes it generally more difficult to play defense if you are never scoring on the offensive end.

 

LeBron can't play Rose the entire game, but you know he'll do it during the last 8-10 minutes and the Heat tend to make their run then and close out the game.

 

I don't really know what the solution is, honestly. He has to shift to a different game at that point and look to dish more off that penetration and the corresponding collapsing Heat defense. It seems to me like a guy subbing in a guy like Taj at that point would be beneficial, as he can finish strong at the hole and not fumble and bumble the ball like Noah tends to do. Having Korver in then would help as well as he could spot up around the 3-point line. They don't have enough players to all collapse on Derrick, cover Taj moving to the basket, and leave someone on Korver all the time...

 

It wasn't just LeBron. Rose was bad against the Knicks too. If he is healthy, he has got to get his minutes to get him back into game shape. Having him ready for the playoffs is more important than an individual game right now.

[iamshack]

Honestly shack, that 10 minutes is what the Bulls need Hamilton for.

 

You have a 2nd option who can make a mid-range jump shot, Boozer down low, and Deng on the other side, if they put Lebron out on Rose, suddenly you have mismatches all over the place. Either the Heat bring in extra size and the Bulls have 2 options who are faster than the Heat at getting to the hoop, or the Heat don't bring in extra size at which point the Bulls control the paint.

 

Hamilton is supposed to provide that floor spacing. If Lebron moves out to the top to deny Rose, then they can't collapse on the paint. If Rose can get by Lebron, then he owns them...if he can't get by Lebron, then he can still collapse that defense and have a shooter.

 

Korver utterly failed in this role last year because he couldn't defend Wade and he couldn't make anything during the playoffs.

Yeah, Korver had a really bad series...hopefully his PAP training will show some dividends this year

 

I still would like to see Taj get some minutes in that part of the game, as I really think he could finish a lot off of Rose's penetration whereas Jo is not quite skilled enough.

[iamshack]

It wasn't just LeBron. Rose was bad against the Knicks too. If he is healthy, he has got to get his minutes to get him back into game shape. Having him ready for the playoffs is more important than an individual game right now.

No, I know...I realize Rose is rusty and injured.

 

But Rose was fine all the other times LeBron shut him down...and you can see it in Rose's game now...he is lost for what to do when LeBron switches to him....

 

Maybe in a few years when LeBron starts to lose a step and Rose is still young he will be able to get to the hole, but he just can't now...

[Steve9347]

That game last night was awesome. Many beverages were consumed bw that and Hawks.

[Jenksismyhero]

No, I know...I realize Rose is rusty and injured.

 

But Rose was fine all the other times LeBron shut him down...and you can see it in Rose's game now...he is lost for what to do when LeBron switches to him....

 

Maybe in a few years when LeBron starts to lose a step and Rose is still young he will be able to get to the hole, but he just can't now...

 

The hope is that Rose can dominate for 3 quarters, and in the 4th when Lebron switches we'll have Taj/Korver/Hamilton and Boozer all over the court ready to make an open jumpshot. Rose can still get by Lebron and find the open guy. He's been so off on his passing, both in this game and the game against the Knicks. That's all about game speed and acclimating to it.

[Boogua]

No, I know...I realize Rose is rusty and injured.

 

But Rose was fine all the other times LeBron shut him down...and you can see it in Rose's game now...he is lost for what to do when LeBron switches to him....

 

Maybe in a few years when LeBron starts to lose a step and Rose is still young he will be able to get to the hole, but he just can't now...

I tend to disagree with this. They put a younger Lebron (when he was with Cleveland) and he couldn't really stay in front of Rose. Rose put him on skates. Last year in the ECF Rose wasn't 100% (sprained ankle against indiana pretty badly IIRC) and his jumper was terrible. Even then he still got by Lebron pretty easily on a few occasions. The Heat defense just collapses and Rose has problems.

 

Look, Lebron couldn't guard or stay in front of Jason Terry in the finals last year. Terry is quick, but a healthy Rose is quicker. Another big difference is that when Lebron sagged off Terry he hit the jump shot. Rose couldn't hit anything in the ECF last year.

 

Lebron's man defense is wayyyy overblown.

[southsider2k5]

No, I know...I realize Rose is rusty and injured.

 

But Rose was fine all the other times LeBron shut him down...and you can see it in Rose's game now...he is lost for what to do when LeBron switches to him....

 

Maybe in a few years when LeBron starts to lose a step and Rose is still young he will be able to get to the hole, but he just can't now...

 

Which is why I advocated opening up the floor with Noah.

[iamshack]

I tend to disagree with this. They put a younger Lebron (when he was with Cleveland) and he couldn't really stay in front of Rose. Rose put him on skates. Last year in the ECF Rose wasn't 100% (sprained ankle against indiana pretty badly IIRC) and his jumper was terrible. Even then he still got by Lebron pretty easily on a few occasions. The Heat defense just collapses and Rose has problems.

 

Look, Lebron couldn't guard or stay in front of Jason Terry in the finals last year. Terry is quick, but a healthy Rose is quicker. Another big difference is that when Lebron sagged off Terry he hit the jump shot. Rose couldn't hit anything in the ECF last year.

 

Lebron's man defense is wayyyy overblown.

I'm sure you guys see more basketball than me, so you are probably right...I dunno if maybe LeBron learned Rose's game more or if he just disrespects Rose's jumper so he doesn't have to play him like he would Terry.

 

But let's make one thing clear here...Terry is a much much much much much better shooter than Rose is...

[southsider2k5]

I tend to disagree with this. They put a younger Lebron (when he was with Cleveland) and he couldn't really stay in front of Rose. Rose put him on skates. Last year in the ECF Rose wasn't 100% (sprained ankle against indiana pretty badly IIRC) and his jumper was terrible. Even then he still got by Lebron pretty easily on a few occasions. The Heat defense just collapses and Rose has problems.

 

Look, Lebron couldn't guard or stay in front of Jason Terry in the finals last year. Terry is quick, but a healthy Rose is quicker. Another big difference is that when Lebron sagged off Terry he hit the jump shot. Rose couldn't hit anything in the ECF last year.

 

Lebron's man defense is wayyyy overblown.

 

There is a real good chance, that we aren't going to see a healthy Derrick Rose this year.

[Steve9347]

Making any judgments on Derrick Rose's game vs. LeBron based on last night's game is foolish. Rose passed on like 4 wide open looks from 3 point range. He has zero confidence right now. He was missing shots he makes (most notably, ridiculous runners in the lane) and he was avoiding contact.

 

This is to be expected from a kid not used to being injured who has missed 23 games this year and watched his team succeed without him. Rose is going through a rough time right now. Coming back against the Knicks in MSG and the Heat, both national games, that's rough. He'll get right, and get his confidence back, against Detroit, Washington (oh how he loves to rape John Wall), and Charlotte prior to the next game against the Heat.

 

You will see a different Rose. You will see the MVP.

[Boogua]

I'm sure you guys see more basketball than me, so you are probably right...I dunno if maybe LeBron learned Rose's game more or if he just disrespects Rose's jumper so he doesn't have to play him like he would Terry.

 

But let's make one thing clear here...Terry is a much much much much much better shooter than Rose is...

Oh, no doubt, but Rose is obviously much better at driving than Terry. Rose isn't the greatest jump shooter, but he isn't Rajon Rondo either. He's usually a better jump shooter than how he looked in the playoffs. I don't know if it was the injury or the fatigue from the season. Maybe both. But he missed a lot of shots that he usually hits last year in the playoffs.

 

And I don't think Rose will be 100% in the playoffs. He needs to learn how to play a step slower and set up his teammates a bit better. He looked absolutely terrible in pretty much every facet of the game last night.

[iamshack]

Making any judgments on Derrick Rose's game vs. LeBron based on last night's game is foolish. Rose passed on like 4 wide open looks from 3 point range. He has zero confidence right now. He was missing shots he makes (most notably, ridiculous runners in the lane) and he was avoiding contact.

 

This is to be expected from a kid not used to being injured who has missed 23 games this year and watched his team succeed without him. Rose is going through a rough time right now. Coming back against the Knicks in MSG and the Heat, both national games, that's rough. He'll get right, and get his confidence back, against Detroit, Washington (oh how he loves to rape John Wall), and Charlotte prior to the next game against the Heat.

 

You will see a different Rose. You will see the MVP.

Again, I respect that he is injured but these are things that have remained pretty constant over the course of the last year.

 

My judgments are based on what I have seen in just about every Heat-Bulls game.

[Balta1701]

There is a real good chance, that we aren't going to see a healthy Derrick Rose this year.

And if this is true, then we're going to be lucky to get out of the 2nd round.

[iamshack]

Oh, no doubt, but Rose is obviously much better at driving than Terry. Rose isn't the greatest jump shooter, but he isn't Rajon Rondo either. He's usually a better jump shooter than how he looked in the playoffs. I don't know if it was the injury or the fatigue from the season. Maybe both. But he missed a lot of shots that he usually hits last year in the playoffs.

 

And I don't think Rose will be 100% in the playoffs. He needs to learn how to play a step slower and set up his teammates a bit better. He looked absolutely terrible in pretty much every facet of the game last night.

Yeah, but it's easier for LeBron to defend a guy that isn't hitting his jumper and shut down his game around the hoop than vice versa....A player that can hit like that from the perimeter is going to be much more difficult to guard than one who has to go to the hoop a lot more.

[iamshack]

And if this is true, then we're going to be lucky to get out of the 2nd round.

The thing is, we could get out of the second round if we just admitted that was the case and adjusted...I think we are still better than most teams even when Rose isn't in the game.

 

But you know they will force Rose out there and he will try and be the mvp and actually hurt us...

[Steve9347]

Here are Derrick Rose's point totals vs the Heat over the last two years.

 

2

34

25

23

20

21

28

27

26

34

 

Of course, in those games, he's only shot 37%, but he got to the stripe like a mad donkey slayer.

 

What do we take from this? Obviously last night was an aberration, but the Heat with their Big 2.5 certainly do a better job on Rose than any other team in the NBA.

 

 

[southsider2k5]

And if this is true, then we're going to be lucky to get out of the 2nd round.

 

Well we did just beat the Heat in back to back games without him and with him being a huge negative while on the floor.

[GoodAsGould]

The thing is, we could get out of the second round if we just admitted that was the case and adjusted...I think we are still better than most teams even when Rose isn't in the game.

 

But you know they will force Rose out there and he will try and be the mvp and actually hurt us...

 

The Bulls could advance to the conference finals without Rose given how they have played this season and the talent of teams in the East, I don't see anyway whatsoever they don't make it there. Rose looked 100% healthy yesterday just he is rusty which is to be expected. Between the regular season and the first round I expect him to be his old self before we have to worry about the Heat.