2011-2012 NBA Season Thread

[Jordan4life_2007]

Ew. Egads, no. That guy's going to be next to worthless in two seasons.

 

That and he's too fragile. He's admitted that almost being traded to Houston and not knowing what was going to happen at the deadline messed with him this year. After seeing what happened to Lamar Odom, pass.

[Quin]

Maybe new Orlando GM will be desperate and try and swing a deal for Booz?

 

Depending on the deal, we could play for Harden, or at least hurt the Thunder's pocketbook.

[southsider2k5]

Maybe new Orlando GM will be desperate and try and swing a deal for Booz?

 

Depending on the deal, we could play for Harden, or at least hurt the Thunder's pocketbook.

 

It would have to be a sign and trade, as the Bulls have no cap room.

[ZoomSlowik]

Interesting. With so many faults, I wanted to argue this point. I still think I have to given top 5 players are on the court in crunch time, and you simply can't put Dwight out there on offense down two with ten seconds left, because he'll wind up at the stripe and you will wind up losing the game.

 

In typing this response, I discovered our departed Derrick Rose had become quite the efficient player when healthy this year, to the point of landing in the top 10 of PER. Where are you, Felix?! Oh wait, Derrick's dead so it doesn't matter. Full disclosure - I want to put Derrick in here, but exploded legs do not allow.

 

Here are my top 10 players in the NBA - note, this is for a one-year season, not a value moving forward season. Top 10 guys to help win you a championship in 2012-2013:

 

1. LeBron James - man, I wish he'd have gone to New York.

2. Kevin Durant - love, nerd glasses and all.

3. Chistopher Emmanuel Paul Three

4. D-Wade

5. Kobe Bryant

6. f*** IT IM RANKING DERRICK ROSE HERE f*** YOU ALL

7. Russell Westbrook - he's basically a healthy Derrick Rose at this point.

8. Kevin Love

9. Dwight Howard - achy back, drama, crunch time s***tiness.

10. Blake Griffin - wow, I guess he is a superstar. Apologies to whomever I called out.

 

We party.

 

This logic is brutal. So was Shaq not a top-5 player? You're just going to ignore the other 47 minutes and 50 seconds where he's clearly the best big man in the league? How is Blake right below him with the same weakness and nowhere near the same defensive value?

 

With Lebron and Wade on the same team, Howard probably has a bigger impact on his team's record than anyone in the NBA right now. Orlando has consistently been a good defensive team entirely because of him and he's the best finisher in the league. They've had no business being anywhere near as successful as they have been the last several years, that's pretty much all Dwight.

 

Also, PER. Having a good PER doesn't really mean you're "efficient" even though it's in the abbreviation. It's largely based on rates of stat accumulation, which Derrick is going to do frequently since he's the primary scorer/ball-handler and does it pretty well.

 

True shooting percentage is a far more useful stat for determining the "efficiency" of one's scoring since it doesn't take anything else into account and his scoring efficiency is what most people criticize (I'm not debating the merit, just posting the facts). Rose was 25th among PG's in true shooting percentage. Granted that includes a lot of guys that got hurt or don't shoot nearly often, but it's still hardly an "elite" number.

Edited May 22, 2012 by ZoomSlowik

[Jordan4life_2007]

lol. Zoom knows his hoops.

[Quin]

It would have to be a sign and trade, as the Bulls have no cap room.

 

If the Bulls dealt Boozer for say, Turkoglu, then Hedo becomes a giant expiring the year Harden is a RFA (which also happens to be another nice FA class, that could re-feature LeBron) and with Deng being an expiring as well...the Bulls could make cap room.

 

This wouldn't be a next year move.

[Jake]

If the Bulls dealt Boozer for say, Turkoglu, then Hedo becomes a giant expiring the year Harden is a RFA (which also happens to be another nice FA class, that could re-feature LeBron) and with Deng being an expiring as well...the Bulls could make cap room.

 

This wouldn't be a next year move.

 

Why not just amnesty Booz instead of trade???

[LittleHurt05]

Why not just amnesty Booz instead of trade???

 

Then you still have to pay his salary and he still counts towards the salary cap. All it does it provide luxury tax relief.

[Balta1701]

Then you still have to pay his salary and he still counts towards the salary cap. All it does it provide luxury tax relief.

Pretty certain this is untrue. Amnesty gets you out of it counting against the cap as well. For example, the Knicks amnestied Billups last season to get far enough under the salary cap to be able to sign Tyson Chandler as an unrestricted free agent.

[Jordan4life_2007]

Pretty certain this is untrue. Amnesty gets you out of it counting against the cap as well. For example, the Knicks amnestied Billups last season to get far enough under the salary cap to be able to sign Tyson Chandler as an unrestricted free agent.

 

You're right. Under the old CBA it counted against the cap.

[ZoomSlowik]

If the Bulls dealt Boozer for say, Turkoglu, then Hedo becomes a giant expiring the year Harden is a RFA (which also happens to be another nice FA class, that could re-feature LeBron) and with Deng being an expiring as well...the Bulls could make cap room.

 

This wouldn't be a next year move.

 

Deng would still be on the books in the year you'd have to sign Harden to an offer sheet (before the 2013/2014 season). I don't have the exact numbers in front of me (for some reason hoopshype doesn't have Derrick's yearly salaries up yet), but Rose/Noah/Deng is going to be at least $42 mil in 2013/2014. So that's a fringe-y max offer even without counting a qualifying offer to Gibson or any draft picks/cheap guys.

[LittleHurt05]

You're right. Under the old CBA it counted against the cap.

 

I just noticed that the article I had found about amnesty was from 2005. Now it makes sense.

[Jordan4life_2007]

Deng would still be on the books in the year you'd have to sign Harden to an offer sheet (before the 2013/2014 season). I don't have the exact numbers in front of me (for some reason hoopshype doesn't have Derrick's yearly salaries up yet), but Rose/Noah/Deng is going to be at least $42 mil in 2013/2014. So that's a fringe-y max offer even without counting a qualifying offer to Gibson or any draft picks/cheap guys.

 

I think the Thunder should go ahead and trade Harden now. They're just not going to be able to keep both he and Ibaka. Harden would net them a bounty (i.e. multiple first-round draft picks). You can't let Ibaka get away.

[ZoomSlowik]

I think the Thunder should go ahead and trade Harden now. They're just not going to be able to keep both he and Ibaka. Harden would net them a bounty (i.e. multiple first-round draft picks). You can't let Ibaka get away.

 

Meh. Harden is definitely a better player, his offensive efficiency was ridiculous. As the Bulls have proven, it's not easy to find a legit scorer on the cheap. The only reason it'd make any sense for OKC is they already have Durant and Westbrook.

 

The problem with that is you need a big and Ibaka's development curve is a huge wildcard. At his current 10-8 level with good defense, you could probably find a reasonable replacement. If he turns into a 15 PPG type, that's another story.

[Jordan4life_2007]

Meh. Harden is definitely a better player, his offensive efficiency was ridiculous. As the Bulls have proven, it's not easy to find a legit scorer on the cheap. The only reason it'd make any sense for OKC is they already have Durant and Westbrook.

 

The problem with that is you need a big and Ibaka's development curve is a huge wildcard. At his current 10-8 level with good defense, you could probably find a reasonable replacement. If he turns into a 15 PPG type, that's another story.

 

That'd be the gamble. Ibaka is 22 and couldn't speak a word of english three years ago. He's already a game-changer defensively and his offensive game is improving. I love Harden. But finding a third scorer to compliment Durant/Russell would seemingly be a lot easier than finding a game-changing big with upside. That's just my opinion. It's actually a shame they can't keep both. The Thunder didn't put some super team together. They scouted and drafted almost too well and they're going to pay the price for it.

Edited May 22, 2012 by Jordan4life

[southsider2k5]

Deng would still be on the books in the year you'd have to sign Harden to an offer sheet (before the 2013/2014 season). I don't have the exact numbers in front of me (for some reason hoopshype doesn't have Derrick's yearly salaries up yet), but Rose/Noah/Deng is going to be at least $42 mil in 2013/2014. So that's a fringe-y max offer even without counting a qualifying offer to Gibson or any draft picks/cheap guys.

 

I don't know how the Bulls could match up. The young bigs the Bulls have is their strength, and OKC is already loaded up front.

[Steve9347]

That'd be the gamble. Ibaka is 22 and couldn't speak a word of english three years ago. He's already a game-changer defensively and his offensive game is improving.

His offensive game is definitely improving. He's got a pretty sweet stroke on an 18 foot jump shot. Scotty Brooks had better unleash him fully next year.

[Quin]

Deng would still be on the books in the year you'd have to sign Harden to an offer sheet (before the 2013/2014 season). I don't have the exact numbers in front of me (for some reason hoopshype doesn't have Derrick's yearly salaries up yet), but Rose/Noah/Deng is going to be at least $42 mil in 2013/2014. So that's a fringe-y max offer even without counting a qualifying offer to Gibson or any draft picks/cheap guys.

 

Meant to say Deng/Hedo would become massive expiring contracts the summer Harden is a FA, so you could possibly trade one.

[Balta1701]

Meant to say Deng/Hedo would become massive expiring contracts the summer Harden is a FA, so you could possibly trade one.

Struggle to see why the Thunder would take on either of those guys for Harden...they're pretty good at SF, so there would need to be a 3rd team involved somehow, which is always messy.

[Jordan4life_2007]

His offensive game is definitely improving. He's got a pretty sweet stroke on an 18 foot jump shot. Scotty Brooks had better unleash him fully next year.

 

With multiple first rounders, which would be the requirement if they dealt Harden, one would think with their draft pedigree they could find a player somewhat similar to Harden. Anthony Davis isn't going #1 because of his offense (and I know you and everyone else knows this. So gould can't say I'm stating the obvious). Bigs > guards/wings 8 times out of 10.

[Quin]

Struggle to see why the Thunder would take on either of those guys for Harden...they're pretty good at SF, so there would need to be a 3rd team involved somehow, which is always messy.

 

The Thunder aren't taking them...

 

The Bulls are dealing them to some team that wants an expiring for the next summer. Then the Bulls have cap to throw at Harden.

[Balta1701]

The Thunder aren't taking them...

 

The Bulls are dealing them to some team that wants an expiring for the next summer. Then the Bulls have cap to throw at Harden.

So...that means the Bulls would need to find a team willing to give up a 2013 expiring in exchange for a 2014 expiring? Meaning that the team needs to actually want a guy like Deng.

 

They don't have the pieces right now but I wonder if that's something we could drag the Lakers in to if they move Gasol somewhere else to try to fill out their roster.

[ZoomSlowik]

With multiple first rounders, which would be the requirement if they dealt Harden, one would think with their draft pedigree they could find a player somewhat similar to Harden. Anthony Davis isn't going #1 because of his offense (and I know you and everyone else knows this. So gould can't say I'm stating the obvious). Bigs > guards/wings 8 times out of 10.

 

You can't really say bigs>guards without taking the players into account (see Bowie, Sam and Oden, Greg). Every situation is different.

 

Harden is a damn good scoring wing. He scored 17 PPG while taking 10 shots. On a team that didn't have Durant and Westbrook, he easily scores 20. That trio also gives the Thunder the luxury of not having to worry about offense since those three combine for like 70 PPG, giving them the flexibility to go all defense with their other guys. If you don't need scoring from your bigs, you can find serviceable guys unless you're the Miami Heat. He also fits very well since he doesn't always have to dominate the ball to score, someone like Monta Ellis or Tyreke Evans doesn't work on OKC.

 

Their "draft pedigree" is pretty much based on hitting with top-5 picks right now. Durant went #2 and would have gone #1 most years, Westbrook went #4 in one of the strongest drafts in recent memory, Harden went #3 (after Hasheem Thabeet, lol). Obviously Ibaka was a good find as a foreigner most had never heard of. Are they going to be able to get an unprotected top-5 pick in this draft or the next for him? That kind of think is generally hard to swing, and they'd still have to hit even if they did.

 

It's not going to be any easier to find a scorer of that caliber with a mid to late round pick than it will be to find a decent big man. You're still taking a hit even if you end up with an Aaron Afflalo or Paul George type just like you'd be taking a hit if you end up with a Taj Gibson or Kenneth Faried.

 

Right now I'd say there's a bigger gap between those guys on the wing than between Ibaka and those bigs. Wait another year and the answer might change, which is the real issue there.

 

Given their needs, Ibaka probably makes more sense. Harden is definitely a better player at this point though and he's not remotely easy to replace.

Edited May 22, 2012 by ZoomSlowik

[Jordan4life_2007]

You can't really say bigs>guards without taking the players into account (see Bowie, Sam and Oden, Greg). Every situation is different.

 

Harden is a damn good scoring wing. He scored 17 PPG while taking 10 shots. On a team that didn't have Durant and Westbrook, he easily scores 20. That trio also gives the Thunder the luxury of not having to worry about offense since those three combine for like 70 PPG, giving them the flexibility to go all defense with their other guys. If you don't need scoring from your bigs, you can find serviceable guys unless you're the Miami Heat. He also fits very well since he doesn't always have to dominate the ball to score, someone like Monta Ellis or Tyreke Evans doesn't work on OKC.

 

Their "draft pedigree" is pretty much based on hitting with top-5 picks right now. Durant went #2 and would have gone #1 most years, Westbrook went #4 in one of the strongest drafts in recent memory, Harden went #3 (after Hasheem Thabeet, lol). Obviously Ibaka was a good find as a foreigner most had never heard of. Are they going to be able to get an unprotected top-5 pick in this draft or the next for him? That kind of think is generally hard to swing, and they'd still have to hit even if they did.

 

It's not going to be any easier to find a scorer of that caliber with a mid to late round pick than it will be to find a decent big man. You're still taking a hit even if you end up with an Aaron Afflalo type just like you'd be taking a hit if you end up with a Taj Gibson or Kenneth Faried.

 

Right now I'd say there's a bigger gap between those guys on the wing than between Ibaka and those bigs. Wait another year and the answer might change, which is the real issue there.

 

Given their needs, Ibaka probably makes more sense. Harden is definitely a better player at this point though and he's not remotely easy to replace.

 

I agree with most of this. I never said Harden would be easy to replace. It'd be difficult. When I mentioned the Thunder's draft pedigree, I wasn't really talking about Durant. That was a no-brainer, especially when Portland took Oden 1st. Westbrook, Harden and Ibaka were hardly sure things. That was a lot of scouting mixed in with a smudge of good luck. Let me ask you this:: which would be harder to find in the draft? A Wesley Mathews type or a JaVale McGee? Yes, the latter is slow in the head but ridiculously gifted in all other aspects.

[ZoomSlowik]

I agree with most of this. I never said Harden would be easy to replace. It'd be difficult. When I mentioned the Thunder's draft pedigree, I wasn't really talking about Durant. That was a no-brainer, especially when Portland took Oden 1st. Westbrook, Harden and Ibaka were hardly sure things. That was a lot of scouting mixed in with a smudge of good luck. Let me ask you this:: which would be harder to find in the draft? A Wesley Mathews type or a JaVale McGee? Yes, the latter is slow in the head but ridiculously gifted in all other aspects.

 

I'm way too lazy to come up with a comprehensive list. You can find both. Paul Milsap, David West, Carlos Boozer and Chris Kaman were later picks. So were Michael Redd, Danny Granger and Gilbert Arenas (Monta Ellis doesn't count to me since he was a high schooler). Opportunity is also part of it with these guys, someone like Jason Thompson would fit nicely on the right team but has been buried in Sacramento.

 

I feel like the bar to be a serviceable big man is a lot lower than it is to be a top-3 scorer, so I guess I'd lean slightly towards the wings. The "potential" part is the killer though because legitimate big men that can score down low, rebound and defend are about as common as World Series banners in Chicago.

Edited May 22, 2012 by ZoomSlowik