2011-2012 NBA Season Thread

[Jake]

You also have to keep in mind that they were holding Derrick out of more games than they thought were absolutely necessary, trying to hedge their bets. This makes a big difference. Playing 35 minutes when you feel completely healed vs playing 20 when you feel like s*** are two different things.

[Jordan4life_2007]

I'm hearing Mike Miller might retire. He has three years and almost $19 million dollars remaining on his contract. Do the Heat get that money back? If so, that's not good.

[Soxbadger]

You also have to keep in mind that they were holding Derrick out of more games than they thought were absolutely necessary, trying to hedge their bets. This makes a big difference. Playing 35 minutes when you feel completely healed vs playing 20 when you feel like s*** are two different things.

 

When was Rose completely healed?

 

Look at the game logs after January, he never played more than 11 games straight after his injury. Rose (imo) was NEVER completely healthy this season, which is why the way the Bulls handled him was criminal. And if you are trying to hedge your bets and keep him out of more games then necessary, wouldnt you also not over use him when he did play?

 

It makes no sense to have him sit out an extra game to then play 39 and have to miss another game.

 

Thats just ludicrous and inconsistent.

[Soxbadger]

I'm hearing Mike Miller might retire. He has three years and almost $19 million dollars remaining on his contract. Do the Heat get that money back? If so, that's not good.

 

Why would that matter?

 

Im pretty sure Heat are almost at cap with Bosh, Lebron, Wade and Chalmers, so losing Miller would just impact their luxury tax. They would have to replace miller with a MLE so that would be rough on them.

 

http://hoopshype.com/salaries/miami.htm

 

Unless the salary cap jumps about 20mil next year, the Heat are still way over as they have approx 52 mil committed to 3 players.

[Balta1701]

I'm hearing Mike Miller might retire. He has three years and almost $19 million dollars remaining on his contract. Do the Heat get that money back? If so, that's not good.

Yes that would save them money but they're over the cap anyway so that shouldn't impact much other than their luxury tax payment. They'll still have the mini Mid level available this offseason either way I think.

[Jordan4life_2007]

Why would that matter?

 

Im pretty sure Heat are almost at cap with Bosh, Lebron, Wade and Chalmers, so losing Miller would just impact their luxury tax. They would have to replace miller with a MLE so that would be rough on them.

 

http://hoopshype.com/salaries/miami.htm

 

Unless the salary cap jumps about 20mil next year, the Heat are still way over as they have approx 52 mil committed to 3 players.

 

 

Yes that would save them money but they're over the cap anyway so that shouldn't impact much other than their luxury tax payment. They'll still have the mini Mid level available this offseason either way I think.

 

This is why I asked. I wasn't really sure. The basketball cap, etc confuses the s*** out of me.

[Soxbadger]

Yeah NBA salary cap is somewhat convoluted. I really dont understand much of it, just enough to make me dangerous.

[Kyyle23]

That is not really true.

 

Rose's injuries started in January. When he returned he played 36, 38, 37, 45, 41, 31, 40, 31 and then he starts to get injured again, 11, 22. So he misses another 5 games, when he comes back does he play 25-30 minutes to take it easy? No, he plays 35 minutes the first game. Then it goes 30, 41, 35, 28, 42, 29, 39, 36, 35, 43, and he is then out another 12 games. At this point youd really expect his first game back would be light work, but he plays 39 minutes and then has to miss the next game. After that the Bulls take it easy, he plays 25 minutes. The problem is the next game he once again plays 41 minutes and then has to sit again for another 3 games. He comes back and plays 32 minutes and the final game 27.

 

So your comment isnt really born out by the stats. Rose mpgs drop because a few games he played less than 25 minutes, but they were an aberration. It wasnt that after Rose got hurt early, he never played 35 minutes again. In fact he consistently kept playing 35+ minutes. There were just a few games where he played under 20 minutes and a handful of under 30.

 

In fact of his last 6 games, 3 were at least 39 minutes, and after every 38+ minute game he didnt play at least the next one.

 

The facts are Rose averaged the most minutes per game in Jan, when he was already experiencing injuries, and he only averaged a minute less in March after he had missed ten games. I do not agree with how Rose was handled at all.

 

Badger, what was the score of the games where he played 35+ minutes. And what was the score when he played less.

[Soxbadger]

Badger, what was the score of the games where he played 35+ minutes. And what was the score when he played less.

 

What does it matter?

 

He shouldnt have been playing that many minutes coming right off injury, worrying about winning regular season games and not resting Rose was short sighted and exactly what Im arguing against.

[Kyyle23]

What does it matter?

 

He shouldnt have been playing that many minutes coming right off injury, worrying about winning regular season games and not resting Rose was short sighted and exactly what Im arguing against.

 

Because my point was he wasnt playing high minutes unless necessary. If the games were tight and they needed him, he was in. If they werent, he sat.

 

Plus, Thibs always would start games with Rose, then put the entire bench mob in to start the second quarter. If the bench mob extended the lead, Rose would be eased in midway through the second quarter.

 

Im arguing that his minute usage was a direct result of the type of game they played. He rested Rose when he could.

 

And it matters because all you keep pointing to is his minutes usage, nothing else. Your guy Rivers ran Paul Pierce out for the entire end of the season run on a bum leg, because he needed him. Thibs played Rose with caution after the injuries started

 

Lets take a look, shall we?

 

First game back from first injury absence

 

Boston, minutes 39:19, final score 88-79. The Bulls let a 20 point halftime lead dwindle to 1 point, Derrick had to take over, game won.

 

Toronto, minutes 41:28, Final Score 77-64. Bulls were up 4 points going into the 4th quarter, at home, and Rose had to come in and save the day again.

 

Then he sat out 4 games due to the turf toe issue again

 

NJ Nets, minutes 36:19, final score 110-95. So basically Derrick sat out most of the 4th quarter.

 

Next game, they LOST 90-95 to the Pacers, and Derrick only played 38 minutes. So even in a loss Thibs didnt push him to come back out and play.

 

Milwaukee, Final score 107-100, minutes 37:17, again, Derrick sitting out what would be most of an entire quarter

 

Heat, lost 93-97, minutes 44:33. Derrick missed a few free throws at the end in a crucial game against the eventual NBA champions

 

Wizards, Final score 98-88, minutes 40:53. So Derrick basically takes off a little over half of a quarter in a home win.

 

Philadelphia, lost 82-98, minutes 31:04. In a blowout loss, Thibs lets him sit down and rest. Strange.

 

Knicks, final score 105-102, minutes 39:04. Huge game against the resurgent Knicks, the Bulls pull it off in the garden.

 

 

Im not going to continue to show it to you, because it is obvious the pattern that Thibs used with Rose and all of his injuries this season, just look at his minute log and the final score. Thibs used him for long minutes only when he had to, and when he didnt, Thibs sat him down and let him rest.

[Soxbadger]

Do you even read what I write or are you just completely ignoring it?

 

The point is that the Bulls sacrificed long term success for short term gain. Rose's injury could be catastrophic to the Bulls for the next few years. Paul Pierce is an old man, the Celtics window is basically closing if not closed. If this was Rose at 33 and the entire Bulls squad was old, you understand going to the whip. But we are talking about a young player coming off of a MVP season, and hindsight is 20/20 but the Bulls being the 1st seed or 4th seed really wasnt worth the injury.

 

I am not arguing that Thibs didnt use Rose more or less depending on the game, I am saying that Thibs should have used more restraint regardless of how close the game was, and if that meant losing some games in the regular season, so be it.

[Kyyle23]

Do you even read what I write or are you just completely ignoring it?

 

The point is that the Bulls sacrificed long term success for short term gain. Rose's injury could be catastrophic to the Bulls for the next few years. Paul Pierce is an old man, the Celtics window is basically closing if not closed. If this was Rose at 33 and the entire Bulls squad was old, you understand going to the whip. But we are talking about a young player coming off of a MVP season, and hindsight is 20/20 but the Bulls being the 1st seed or 4th seed really wasnt worth the injury.

 

I am not arguing that Thibs didnt use Rose more or less depending on the game, I am saying that Thibs should have used more restraint regardless of how close the game was, and if that meant losing some games in the regular season, so be it.

 

Its funny that you say I didnt read what you said, then you mention he didnt use restraint after I just showed you that he plainly did use restraint and limited his minutes often.

 

 

But of course, he should have just not let him play for the first half of the season, right? That would have demonstrated restraint. Just dont play your best player until the playoffs. That would have worked.

 

The point is that nobody could have predicted Rose was going to blow out his knee. You are acting like Thibs made him play 48 minutes a night and the knee blowing out was inevitable, which isnt even close to true

[ChiSox_Sonix]

I know this is several days after the fact, but thank god Miami won. OKC does not deserve anything good to happen to them. Miami winning isn't the best thing but it sure beats those OKC f***ers from being able to celebrate

[Soxbadger]

Its funny that you say I didnt read what you said, then you mention he didnt use restraint after I just showed you that he plainly did use restraint and limited his minutes often.

 

 

But of course, he should have just not let him play for the first half of the season, right? That would have demonstrated restraint. Just dont play your best player until the playoffs. That would have worked.

 

The point is that nobody could have predicted Rose was going to blow out his knee. You are acting like Thibs made him play 48 minutes a night and the knee blowing out was inevitable, which isnt even close to true

 

Where did I say not play him a half? Look at the game logs, when Rose played around 40 minutes, bad things seemed to happen. Why would you not limit his minutes to around 30-32? Rose would still be playing almost 75% of the game. There is a reason why many teams put a cap on the minutes a returning player can play, its because injuries build up. And its not the knee being blown out was inevitable, it was they were increasing the risk Rose was injured every time they overused him and it was for very little gain. The risk reward was not in their favor.

 

Here is an article on why overuse contributed to Rose's injuries, especially during a compact schedule:

 

http://m.nwitimes.com/sports/columnists/jo...c98d0b8357.html

 

Under-conditioning and overuse make for tired players. Tired players display poor jumping, landing and direction-change mechanics, especially late in games. That's precisely how self-inflicted injuries occur, such as Rose's ACL tear

 

Another article about the impact of this years condensed schedule on injuries:

 

http://bleacherreport.com/articles/1168819...ries-in-the-nba

 

Now on the other hand there is one Dr, Dr. Atchek who has been adamant that overuse/schedule did not impact it:

 

http://sportsillustrated.cnn.com/2012/bask...writethru.1084/

 

At this point you can believe what you want, if you think that Rose playing 39-40 minutes even after injury didnt contribute to his injury battles this season, that is your opinion.

 

Apparently this rumor of Deng to GSW for the 7th overall pick is gaining some momentum. No word on what players would move to match salaries.

 

 

GS gets Deng, Utah gets Beidrins and picks(presumably Bulls this year and future plus from GS), Bulls get Dorell Wright, 7th pick and Devin Harris

 

The trade on its own does not make sense, at 7 you are likely out of the running for Barnes and Gilchrist, so you can not guarantee upgrading Deng. Thus the 3 way makes a ton more sense, you get Harris for PG depth, Wright as a SF, then at 7 you can take best player available.

 

If the Bulls are looking SG, it could be Waiters, Rivers or Lamb.

 

For a big the Bulls could have their choice of a number of guys as its possible Robinson and Davis are the only bigs selected before 7.

[Kyyle23]

At this point you can believe what you want, if you think that Rose playing 39-40 minutes even after injury didnt contribute to his injury battles this season, that is your opinion.

 

Here let me do a soxbadger "where did I say Rose playing 39-40 minutes even after injury didnt contribute to his injuries?"

 

I didnt say that. i keep telling you and showing you that THIBS WAS CAREFUL WITH HIS MINUTES AND ONLY USED HIM FOR EXTENSIVE MINUTES WHEN HE HAD TO! MOST OF THE TIME HE WAS PLAYING RIGHT AROUND 35 MINUTES

 

 

Cite all you want. You are wrong about Thibs usage of Rose.

[Soxbadger]

Here let me do a soxbadger "where did I say Rose playing 39-40 minutes even after injury didnt contribute to his injuries?"

 

I didnt say that. i keep telling you and showing you that THIBS WAS CAREFUL WITH HIS MINUTES AND ONLY USED HIM FOR EXTENSIVE MINUTES WHEN HE HAD TO! MOST OF THE TIME HE WAS PLAYING RIGHT AROUND 35 MINUTES

 

 

Cite all you want. You are wrong about Thibs usage of Rose.

 

Im not wrong, I posted the game logs of minutes, how can that be wrong.

 

What you consider careful, I consider negligent.

 

Its like arguing that its hot or cold in the office. I think its hot, no its cold.

 

Im not going to change your opinion, you think playing Derrick Rose 38 minutes against the Knicks on April 8th was careful because the game was close. I think its stupid that they even considered the game being close, Rose had missed almost a month before that game was played.

 

You think that Rose playing 41 minutes on April 14 was being careful, I think it was stupid.

 

Not to mention that after each of those games, Rose then missed the at least the next game.

 

You keep saying:

 

"Extensive minutes when he had to"

 

I keep saying:

 

"Why did he have to?"

 

It was the regular season, why not limit Rose no matter what. Why take the risk of Rose getting further injured?