Soxbadger Posted January 19, 2012 Share Posted January 19, 2012 Balta, Im bored so I guess Ill show why the stat is meaningless. Lets take a random year, 2005-2006 pistons. http://www.basketball-reference.com/teams/DET/2006.html According to basketball reference, Hamilton had the worst defensive rating of any piston (108), Wallace had the best (95) followed by Sheed. In terms of defensive win shares, Hamilton was once again last of the starters. That team was 3rd in ppg with 90 per game. If Hamilton's man was scoring 20+, that means Hamilton defensively was giving up 20-25% of all the points scored against the Pistons on any night. Furthermore, the stats would suggest that if the Pistons were playing optimum defense, that Billups or Prince would have been guarding the best perimeter player and Hamilton would not have been. The simple fact is, there are way to many variables to say that Hamilton definitely was the reason that those players scored less. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jordan4life_2007 Posted January 19, 2012 Share Posted January 19, 2012 And the thing with Wade is that he's been so damn injury prone that you don't know which games he was hurt, or had just come back from an injury, etc. He was WAYYYY off his game in '07 and '08 before he came back in '09 and blitzed the league. Wade torched the Pistons in their heyday when he was healthy. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
southsider2k5 Posted January 19, 2012 Share Posted January 19, 2012 QUOTE (Soxbadger @ Jan 19, 2012 -> 02:11 PM) Well I think that relying on first person evidence (Ive watched them play) is better than relying on third party (some one else watched them play), so I dont see how its faulty memories or anything else, its called a difference of opinion. Some people think hes good, some people dont. I personally think Brewer is one of the best defenders on the Bulls and Id rather not give him up if there is a different way to acquire talent. And if you google Wade and Hamilton together, you get a mass of stories talking about Hamilton being a Wade stopper, those stories of course being from first hand observations of the writers. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Quin Posted January 19, 2012 Share Posted January 19, 2012 Keith Bogans also slowed Wade down last year. You're telling me Butler and Ray Allen couldn't as well? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Soxbadger Posted January 19, 2012 Share Posted January 19, 2012 And I value my opinion over writers opinions. Its not like Ive never seen these guys play. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SoxFan1 Posted January 19, 2012 Share Posted January 19, 2012 This thread is almost as much of a pissing contest as the NFL thread. Jeez. "I think so and so is better than so and so." "You're an idiot. So and so is (insert absolute here)." "NO, you're an idiot." Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jordan4life_2007 Posted January 19, 2012 Share Posted January 19, 2012 QUOTE (Quinarvy @ Jan 19, 2012 -> 02:19 PM) Keith Bogans also slowed Wade down last year. You're telling me Butler and Ray Allen couldn't as well? Butler? Do you really want him playing meaningful minutes in May? And Ray Allen certainly. didn't slow Wade down last year. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jordan4life_2007 Posted January 19, 2012 Share Posted January 19, 2012 QUOTE (SoxFan1 @ Jan 19, 2012 -> 02:20 PM) This thread is almost as much of a pissing contest as the NFL thread. Jeez. "I think so and so is better than so and so." "You're an idiot. So and so is (insert absolute here)." "NO, you're an idiot." Except nobody called or even implied that so and so is an idiot. At least that's not what I'm doing. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SoxFan1 Posted January 19, 2012 Share Posted January 19, 2012 QUOTE (Jordan4life @ Jan 19, 2012 -> 03:22 PM) Except nobody called or even implied that so and so is an idiot. At least that's not what I'm doing. The NBA is funny because fans who don't have the slightest clue can still think that they know what they're talking about. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
southsider2k5 Posted January 19, 2012 Share Posted January 19, 2012 QUOTE (Quinarvy @ Jan 19, 2012 -> 02:19 PM) Keith Bogans also slowed Wade down last year. You're telling me Butler and Ray Allen couldn't as well? And again we are talking about something of the order of 8/10/12 minutes a game, with most of them coming against the second unit. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Balta1701 Posted January 19, 2012 Share Posted January 19, 2012 QUOTE (Soxbadger @ Jan 19, 2012 -> 03:18 PM) Balta, Im bored so I guess Ill show why the stat is meaningless. Lets take a random year, 2005-2006 pistons. http://www.basketball-reference.com/teams/DET/2006.html According to basketball reference, Hamilton had the worst defensive rating of any piston (108), Wallace had the best (95) followed by Sheed. In terms of defensive win shares, Hamilton was once again last of the starters. That team was 3rd in ppg with 90 per game. If Hamilton's man was scoring 20+, that means Hamilton defensively was giving up 20-25% of all the points scored against the Pistons on any night. Furthermore, the stats would suggest that if the Pistons were playing optimum defense, that Billups or Prince would have been guarding the best perimeter player and Hamilton would not have been. The simple fact is, there are way to many variables to say that Hamilton definitely was the reason that those players scored less. Thank you! That's actually what I was hoping someone would do in reply, so that I could learn something! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Balta1701 Posted January 19, 2012 Share Posted January 19, 2012 QUOTE (southsider2k5 @ Jan 19, 2012 -> 03:19 PM) And if you google Wade and Hamilton together, you get a mass of stories talking about Hamilton being a Wade stopper, those stories of course being from first hand observations of the writers. Acutally I just did that and couldn't find any, they were all just about Hamilton signing with the Bulls. Can you give a good one? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Quin Posted January 19, 2012 Share Posted January 19, 2012 SoxFan1 really has to hate being a moderator the past few days. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jordan4life_2007 Posted January 19, 2012 Share Posted January 19, 2012 (edited) QUOTE (Balta1701 @ Jan 19, 2012 -> 02:25 PM) Thank you! That's actually what I was hoping someone would do in reply, so that I could learn something! GMAB, Balta. You didn't need him to post that to figure that out. You're not an idiot. You just like to debate forever and ever. Edited January 19, 2012 by Jordan4life Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Balta1701 Posted January 19, 2012 Share Posted January 19, 2012 QUOTE (Jordan4life @ Jan 19, 2012 -> 03:26 PM) GMAB, Balta. You need him to post that to figure that out. You're not an idiot. You just like to debate forever and ever. I know nothing about defensive win shares in basketball. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Steve9347 Posted January 19, 2012 Share Posted January 19, 2012 http://articles.chicagotribune.com/2011-12...ls-reader-q-a/3 How do you think Rip will do against D-Wade should the Bulls face the Heat again in the playoffs? -- Jordan Martel; Montgomery, Ill. Shortly after Hamilton's signing, a coach for another team and I were emailing. He said, "Wade hates playing against Hamilton." I know Kirk Hinrich and Hamilton had some memorable battles when Hamilton played for the Pistons as well. Hamilton is one of those players who annoys defenders because he NEVER STOPS MOVING. He's also tougher than his skinny body would indicate and enjoys the pressure of big moments. This isn't to say Wade won't have some success against him because Wade is a transcendent talent. It is to say Hamilton won't back down from Wade. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jordan4life_2007 Posted January 19, 2012 Share Posted January 19, 2012 QUOTE (Balta1701 @ Jan 19, 2012 -> 02:27 PM) I know nothing about defensive win shares in basketball. You don't need any advanced statistic to know that Richard Hamilton was the "weak link" defensively on those Pistons teams. You can cover guys up with the right system/scheme. We've seen that plenty in just the last four years. It still doesn't mean x player can guard y player. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jordan4life_2007 Posted January 19, 2012 Share Posted January 19, 2012 QUOTE (Steve9347 @ Jan 19, 2012 -> 02:30 PM) http://articles.chicagotribune.com/2011-12...ls-reader-q-a/3 Kobe Bryant also said that he hated to play against Reggie Miller. Not because he couldn't score on him whenever he felt like it. But because Reggie, like RIP, made a living running off screen after screen after screen. Not to mention Reggie was dirty as hell. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Steve9347 Posted January 19, 2012 Share Posted January 19, 2012 QUOTE (Soxbadger @ Jan 19, 2012 -> 02:11 PM) I personally think Brewer is one of the best defenders on the Bulls and Id rather not give him up if there is a different way to acquire talent. Sure, he's a very good defender. However, he's damn near a net-0 on the offensive side of the ball, so he brings little value to that whole part of the game where spreading the floor and scoring is important. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
HeGone33 Posted January 19, 2012 Share Posted January 19, 2012 QUOTE (Jordan4life @ Jan 19, 2012 -> 02:31 PM) You don't need any advanced statistic to know that Richard Hamilton was the "weak link" defensively on those Pistons teams. You can cover guys up with the right system/scheme. We've seen that plenty in just the last four years. It still doesn't mean x player can guard y player. This. It doesn't matter who the Bulls have guarding Wade because their team defense relies much on their system/schemes. Who do we know that covers Lebron as well as Deng has? Yet as well as he has, Lebron still does whatever he wants for the most part. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
southsider2k5 Posted January 19, 2012 Share Posted January 19, 2012 QUOTE (Balta1701 @ Jan 19, 2012 -> 02:26 PM) Acutally I just did that and couldn't find any, they were all just about Hamilton signing with the Bulls. Can you give a good one? 3 quick ones. http://www.csnchicago.com/blog/bulls-talk/...?blockID=617160 Hamilton is no stranger to playoff series with Wade, LeBron James, Ray Allen and Paul Pierce over the last 8 years, and he’s more than held his own. Rip is one of only a handful of players to average over 20 points in more than 100 career playoff games. And, writers in Miami will tell you he’s given Wade fits with his tireless running around screens on the offensive end, and 6-7 length on the defensive end. http://blogs.palmbeachpost.com/heatzone/20...fect-heat-more/ Chicago desperately needed another creator in the backcourt to complement Derrick Rose. While Hamilton isn’t exactly that, he will do something that the other Bulls guards — from Keith Bogans to Ronnie Brewer to Kyle Korver — couldn’t do last season: He will make Dwyane Wade work on defense. Surely, Pat Riley anticipated this, and is another reason why the Shane Battier signing made so much sense. With potential playoff matchups against savvy, screen-using veterans (from UConn) Hamilton and Ray Allen looming, it will help the Heat to have Battier around to take some of that burden. http://chicago.cbslocal.com/2011/12/10/sch...s-uniform-soon/ Hamilton is a 3 time All Star who has averaged over 17 points a game during his career. His 6’7″ height makes him a perfect compliment for Rose at the 2 guard position and though he’s probably past the prime of his career he can still shoot with the best of them and plays pretty good defense. The defense is key since the Bulls are constantly looking at matching up with Miami in the East. Hamilton would be counted on to guard Dwayne Wade a lot in any matchup scenario. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Steve9347 Posted January 19, 2012 Share Posted January 19, 2012 QUOTE (SoxFan1 @ Jan 19, 2012 -> 02:20 PM) This thread is almost as much of a pissing contest as the NFL thread. Jeez. "I think so and so is better than so and so." "You're an idiot. So and so is (insert absolute here)." "NO, you're an idiot." Feel free to actually contribute to the thread. Absolutely nothing like what you detail above is actually happening. QUOTE (SoxFan1 @ Jan 19, 2012 -> 02:23 PM) The NBA is funny because fans who don't have the slightest clue can still think that they know what they're talking about. Oh, please enlighten everyone. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Steve9347 Posted January 19, 2012 Share Posted January 19, 2012 http://sports.yahoo.com/blogs/fantasy-roto...KLH1mymKPy5bZ8u Derrick Rose's foot injury has now been officially classified as turf toe by the team. Rose described his level of pain as a six or seven on a one-to-10 scale, and he has to be considered questionable for the Bulls' weekend back-to-back (Fri @CLE, Sat CHA). Recovery from turf toe is usually considered in terms of weeks, depending on severity, and the condition can turn chronic if not properly dealt with. For those reasons, the 13-3 Bulls need to look a bit beyond a few potential losses in the present and put the emphasis on a full recovery for Rose. After the weekend's games, they face the Nets (Mon), Pacers (Wed), and Bucks (Fri) - holding him out for the full five games would mean a full two weeks of down time and seriously lower the chances of this becoming a recurring issue over the remainder of the season. F*ck. And f*ck. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jordan4life_2007 Posted January 19, 2012 Share Posted January 19, 2012 (edited) QUOTE (southsider2k5 @ Jan 19, 2012 -> 02:35 PM) 3 quick ones. http://www.csnchicago.com/blog/bulls-talk/...?blockID=617160 http://blogs.palmbeachpost.com/heatzone/20...fect-heat-more/ http://chicago.cbslocal.com/2011/12/10/sch...s-uniform-soon/ So basically, RIP drives people crazy because of his style of game. Nobody likes chasing guys around screens all day. I remember Rick Fox used to say how much he hated guarding Peja. Has nothing to do with Rip Hamilton being some kinda pest defensively. That's guys like Bruce Bowen and Shane Battier. Edited January 19, 2012 by Jordan4life Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Soxbadger Posted January 19, 2012 Share Posted January 19, 2012 Thankfully the Bulls are still probably favorites against CLE and CHA. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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