My patience is running out with KW

[southsider2k5]

their number of wins early in the decade:

 

2001: 80

2002:78

2003:86

2004:67

2005: 80

 

Those are poor records in which they could get good draft picks. As the decade progressed they improved a little with those picks.

 

2006: 87

2007: 83

2008: 86

2009: 75

2010: 85

2011: 81

 

The number of wins was still low which contiued to give them a good draft position.

 

They have not had really good seasons which gave them poor draft positions. They have been in good draft positions so they aren't a real good example.

 

Exactly that middle ground that everyone is so afraid of since 2005.

[SOXOBAMA]

The Blue Jays have never done a full sell like Obama is advocating.

 

What kind of team would you like to see next year?

[ptatc]

They have a real baseball guy and real gm and a game plan. But we have Bud Selig going to Soxfest-oh boy

What happened the last time the north side hired a guy who had won a couple of world series brought his own guys here and was committed to rebuilding the farm system to turn this team around?

Edited January 10, 2012 by ptatc

[southsider2k5]

What happened the last time the north side hired a guy who had won a couple of world series brought his own guys here and was committed to rebuilding the farm system to turn this team around?

 

Thank you.

[caulfield12]

And the White Sox don't have to compete in the AL East, our division is much more wide open, historically.

 

Looking at the 2005 roster, almost none of it was built internally, with the exceptions of Frank Thomas, Rowand, Crede and Buehrle. I guess you could count Jenks and Konerko, but not really.

 

20008 again proved that four well-timed acquisitions (Ramirez, Danks, Quentin and Floyd) can propel a team to the division title.

 

Even though the 2005-06 teams were not homegrown, they had as good a chance as any the Blue Jays or Rays produced to have success for 3+ consecutive years at the major league level...because of that pitching staff. The problem is that Contreras and Garcia were never really the same (Jose for April/May 06 and then poof) and Garland had peaked with us. But we also had Javy Vazquez, on paper...things looked pretty much set and that didn't last another full seaosn before it fell apart. Injuries so often play a huge role. Based on the talent in our farm system from 1998-2001, we should have won at least one World Series. But that great farm system had almost nothing to do with why we eventually ended up winning it...the key players in that group, Rauch and Borchard, were total flops with the White Sox.

 

 

[caulfield12]

What kind of team would you like to see next year?

 

A team exemplifying "sustained excellence" as a strategic model, which polls well in the Heartland and finally, just wins, baby!

 

 

By the way, what were the Blue Jays' attendance numbers over that last decade...? Just as important as their draft position/s.

Pretty bleak, compared to the SkyDome rocking in the 80's/early 90's.

 

 

Edited January 10, 2012 by caulfield12

[Jordan4life_2007]

Then you don't want to do a Tampa rebuild,.

 

Or people could stop being silly and realize Tampa was a freaking expansion team run by the great Chuck Lamar. 2005 onward (the Andrew Friedman era) for Tampa is the model everybody should want to emulate.

Edited January 10, 2012 by Jordan4life

[caulfield12]

Or people can stop being silly and realize Tampa was a freaking expansion team run by the great Chuck Lamar. 2005 onward for Tampa is the model everybody should want to emulate.

 

 

Minus that one small, tiny, minute detail of the Rays, Twins or A's (the 3 most commonly-cited) never winning it all.

 

We have this conversation over and over.

 

We should look at teams like the Giants, Mariners, Rangers and Cardinals for comparisons in terms of market/financials/media, etc. Maybe the Braves.

 

And that Braves' model still has a patent defect, the lack of enough potent offseason to survive most of those postseasons after 1991-1996.

 

 

[ptatc]

And the White Sox don't have to compete in the AL East, our division is much more wide open, historically.

 

Looking at the 2005 roster, almost none of it was built internally, with the exceptions of Frank Thomas, Rowand, Crede and Buehrle. I guess you could count Jenks and Konerko, but not really.

 

20008 again proved that four well-timed acquisitions (Ramirez, Danks, Quentin and Floyd) can propel a team to the division title.

 

Even though the 2005-06 teams were not homegrown, they had as good a chance as any the Blue Jays or Rays produced to have success for 3+ consecutive years at the major league level...because of that pitching staff. The problem is that Contreras and Garcia were never really the same (Jose for April/May 06 and then poof) and Garland had peaked with us. But we also had Javy Vazquez, on paper...things looked pretty much set and that didn't last another full seaosn before it fell apart. Injuries so often play a huge role. Based on the talent in our farm system from 1998-2001, we should have won at least one World Series. But that great farm system had almost nothing to do with why we eventually ended up winning it...the key players in that group, Rauch and Borchard, were total flops with the White Sox.

I would disagree that the farm system had nothing to do with it.

 

1. Trading c. Lee brought us Podsednik.

2. Trading Jeremy reed, Olivo and morse brought Garcia

3. a trade for Garland.

4. A trade for contreras

5. Cameron brought PK

6. Sox developed Janks as a closer (starter in LA system)

 

The farm sytem was used effectively to acquire the pieces needed to win. It's another way to use the farm system products. It's just not the way you would prefer to use it. This is the way KW prerefers to use the farm system, use suspects to acquire proven MLB talent. I think that's why many of the "minor league" people and analysts don't like him.

[Balta1701]

I would disagree that the farm system had nothing to do with it.

 

1. Trading c. Lee brought us Podsednik.

2. Trading Jeremy reed, Olivo and morse brought Garcia

3. a trade for Garland.

4. A trade for contreras

5. Cameron brought PK

6. Sox developed Janks as a closer (starter in LA system)

 

The farm sytem was used effectively to acquire the pieces needed to win. It's another way to use the farm system products. It's just not the way you would prefer to use it. This is the way KW prerefers to use the farm system, use suspects to acquire proven MLB talent. I think that's why many of the "minor league" people and analysts don't like him.

Out of that list, the contributions from the "Farm system" are pretty minimal. Loaiza wasn't a farm system product. Matt Karchner was a 30 year old journeyman we'd picked up from the Royals a few years earlier. Jenks spent 1/2 of a season in the Sox Farm System after the Angels tired of his act.

[southsider2k5]

Or people could stop being silly and realize Tampa was a freaking expansion team run by the great Chuck Lamar. 2005 onward (the Andrew Friedman era) for Tampa is the model everybody should want to emulate.

 

So no players from pre-2005 contributed to that?

[Eminor3rd]

Then you don't want to do a Tampa rebuild,.

 

The Tampa 10-year plan is a myth. The first six of those years were under completely different management than the current regime and they royally jacked everything up the whole time. The new FO only took 4-5 years to get where they are now, and they were in horrible shape top to bottom when they began.

[caulfield12]

Out of that list, the contributions from the "Farm system" are pretty minimal. Loaiza wasn't a farm system product. Matt Karchner was a 30 year old journeyman we'd picked up from the Royals a few years earlier. Jenks spent 1/2 of a season in the Sox Farm System after the Angels tired of his act.

 

 

Thanks, Doc Rock.

 

Saved me some typing.

 

 

And Konerko had been around a LONG, long time before 2005.

Edited January 10, 2012 by caulfield12

[Jordan4life_2007]

So no players from pre-2005 contributed to that?

 

Out of their first-round picks? None other than Upton. And he's basically their Rios (just a lot cheaper). I guess you can count Delmon Young, as he brought back Matt Garza. But they missed badly on many of their first-rounders pre-Friedman.

 

[Jordan4life_2007]

The Tampa 10-year plan is a myth. The first six of those years were under completely different management than the current regime and they royally jacked everything up the whole time. The new FO only took 4-5 years to get where they are now, and they were in horrible shape top to bottom when they began.

 

Thank you!

[southsider2k5]

The Tampa 10-year plan is a myth. The first six of those years were under completely different management than the current regime and they royally jacked everything up the whole time. The new FO only took 4-5 years to get where they are now, and they were in horrible shape top to bottom when they began.

 

They also have no fan base to scare off. Actually they still have no fan base.

[southsider2k5]

Out of their first-round picks? None other than Upton. And he's basically their Rios (just a lot cheaper). I guess you can count Delmon Young, as he brought back Matt Garza. But they missed badly on many of their first-rounders pre-Friedman.

 

You are also missing on guys like Carl Crawford, who in a true rebuild, would have been dealt.

[Jordan4life_2007]

You are also missing on guys like Carl Crawford, who in a true rebuild, would have been dealt.

 

Carl Crawford was a 2nd round pick. That doesn't support your original argument that to be like Tampa you have to suck for 43737347823 years straight and accumulate top-5 picks every year.

Edited January 10, 2012 by Jordan4life

[Balta1701]

Carl Crawford was a 2nd round pick. That doesn't support your original argument that to be like Tampa you have to suck for 43737347823 straight and draft superstars each of those years.

And clearly there's no benefit to picking at the top of the 2nd round compared to the middle of it.

[southsider2k5]

Carl Crawford was a 2nd round pick. That doesn't support your original argument that to be like Tampa you have to suck for 43737347823 years straight and accumulate top-5 picks every year.

 

It also doesn't support the argument that you have to sell off every decent player that you have to get good,.

[Jordan4life_2007]

It also doesn't support the argument that you have to sell off every decent player that you have to get good,.

 

I didn't say it did. That's Obama and Marty.

[ptatc]

Out of that list, the contributions from the "Farm system" are pretty minimal. Loaiza wasn't a farm system product. Matt Karchner was a 30 year old journeyman we'd picked up from the Royals a few years earlier. Jenks spent 1/2 of a season in the Sox Farm System after the Angels tired of his act.

I disagree, most of the pitchers and starting lineup came from trades or were in our farm system.

 

I agree Loaiza wasn't.

 

Karchner wasn't but Garland was 18 or 19 when we got him so he learned here.

 

Jenks was 1/2 year but the sox turned him into a releiver.

 

PK was here but it is still a product of the sytem (cameron) which got him here.

 

Everett was a trade.

 

No matter how you look at it most of the team was a product of the farm system or was acquired by a product of the farm system. Not everyone but most.

even the great theo got really lucky that a twins castoff decided to start taking PEDs to laed boston to a Series.

[TaylorStSox]

Can somebody explain the jizzfest for the Jay's to me? Baseball America says they have a great farm? Awesome. Whens the last time they went to the playoffs? Prospect love is one of the biggest heists on the internet.

[Marty34]

If Sale and Molina are regarded as top of the rotation starters in two years the Sox will be a contending team for the forseeable future. If not, then it's more of a project. One that KW probably won't be in charge of.

[Jordan4life_2007]

Can somebody explain the jizzfest for the Jay's to me? Baseball America says they have a great farm? Awesome. Whens the last time they went to the playoffs? Prospect love is one of the biggest heists on the internet.

 

Prospect sites like BA, BP and Minor league ball are there to, well, talk about, break down and evaluate prospects. That's what they do. They don't care about when the last time a team made the playoffs was. The Blue Jays, led by AA, have built up their system at a rapid rate the last few years and that's why they get talked about so much.