bigruss Posted January 10, 2012 Share Posted January 10, 2012 QUOTE (ptatc @ Jan 10, 2012 -> 01:42 PM) I think this is point most don't get. In order to really build the farm system to one of the best, you need to be bad foir a long time. You obviously can have a good one with good scouting but to be Rays good you need to be bad for a long time. No, no you don't. Look at the Blue Jays for example A. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SOXOBAMA Posted January 10, 2012 Author Share Posted January 10, 2012 LOL, I think every organization would like to scout like the Rays. And it's not that they know when to let go of key players, they simply can't afford them because their market is so s***ty, so the decision is made for them. They have the best GM and MGR in the game today... Glad that both of them are staying with that organzation. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SOXOBAMA Posted January 10, 2012 Author Share Posted January 10, 2012 (edited) I sure as all hedoublehockeysticks wouldn't be patient for 5 seasons. I'm already debating whether i want to spend the $200 on the MLB package this year, and I won't be making a trip to the Cell this year after having done so the last 2 years. Repeat me not caring for 5+ years and I really don't know whether I'd be able to get back excited for a playoff team. And I have 77,000 posts on a White Sox message board. I was very patient with the 49ers... We might not win it all this season but we are on the right path for many seasons to come. As far as the Sox goes. I will be attending around 60 games if we win 70 games or 100. Sure I willbe very frustated at times for many reasons about the Sox but if we are on the right path to a championship, I will be patient. Edited January 10, 2012 by SOXOBAMA Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ptatc Posted January 10, 2012 Share Posted January 10, 2012 (edited) QUOTE (bigruss22 @ Jan 10, 2012 -> 01:44 PM) No, no you don't. Look at the Blue Jays for example A. their number of wins early in the decade: 2001: 80 2002:78 2003:86 2004:67 2005: 80 Those are poor records in which they could get good draft picks. As the decade progressed they improved a little with those picks. 2006: 87 2007: 83 2008: 86 2009: 75 2010: 85 2011: 81 The number of wins was still low which contiued to give them a good draft position. They have not had really good seasons which gave them poor draft positions. They have been in good draft positions so they aren't a real good example. Edited January 10, 2012 by ptatc Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
LittleHurt05 Posted January 10, 2012 Share Posted January 10, 2012 QUOTE (SOXOBAMA @ Jan 10, 2012 -> 01:48 PM) I was very patient with the 49ers... We might not win it all this season but we are on the right path for many seasons to come. As far as the Sox goes. I will be attending around 60 games if we win 70 games or 100. Sure I willbe very frustated at times for many reasons about the Sox but if we are on the right path to a championship, I will be patient. Good for you. Unfortunately for management, the majority of White Sox fans aren't like that. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Marty34 Posted January 10, 2012 Share Posted January 10, 2012 The goal should be sustained excellence. KW deserves a ton of credit for the '05 team, but he has frittered away the opportunity that championship gave the organization in the years that followed it. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jordan4life_2007 Posted January 10, 2012 Share Posted January 10, 2012 QUOTE (ptatc @ Jan 10, 2012 -> 01:42 PM) I think this is point most don't get. In order to really build the farm system to one of the best, you need to be bad foir a long time. You obviously can have a good one with good scouting but to be Rays good you need to be bad for a long time. Yeah, um, what rounds were Matt Moore, the consensus best pitching prospect in baseball, Jeremy Hellickson, the current AL ROY, and Desmond Jennings, a freakishly athletic OF who put up a 2.5 fWAR in about 60 games last year taken in? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ptatc Posted January 10, 2012 Share Posted January 10, 2012 QUOTE (Jordan4life @ Jan 10, 2012 -> 01:58 PM) Yeah, um, what rounds were Matt Moore, the consensus best pitching prospect in baseball, Jeremy Hellickson, the current AL ROY, and Desmond Jennings, a freakishly athletic OF who put up a 2.5 fWAR in about 60 games last year taken in? What round rounds was Mark Buerhle drafted in? There are always individual examples. however, the organization with the best minor leagues are usually the ones which have had the higher draft picks. There are always some exceptions but not every team has the best scout or GM. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SOXOBAMA Posted January 10, 2012 Author Share Posted January 10, 2012 (edited) Braves, Angels, Phillies, Yankees and Rangers all have a great farm system and major league team. So teams don't have to suck for many years to become a true contender. Edited January 10, 2012 by SOXOBAMA Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jordan4life_2007 Posted January 10, 2012 Share Posted January 10, 2012 QUOTE (ptatc @ Jan 10, 2012 -> 02:02 PM) What round rounds was Mark Buerhle drafted in? There are always individual examples. however, the organization with the best minor leagues are usually the ones which have had the higher draft picks. There are always some exceptions but not every team has the best scout or GM. Nice rebuttal. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bigruss Posted January 10, 2012 Share Posted January 10, 2012 QUOTE (ptatc @ Jan 10, 2012 -> 01:55 PM) their number of wins early in the decade: 2001: 80 2002:78 2003:86 2004:67 2005: 80 Those are poor records in which they could get good draft picks. As the decade progressed they improved a little with those picks. 2006: 87 2007: 83 2008: 86 2009: 75 2010: 85 2011: 81 The number of wins was still low which contiued to give them a good draft position. They have not had really good seasons which gave them poor draft positions. They have been in good draft positions so they aren't a real good example. They only recently revamped their scouting department, and that's when they started seeing big changes in their farm system. They haven't drafted that far from the Sox in that period: 2009: Jays 21st/ Sox 23rd 2010: Jays 11th/ Sox 13th 2011: Jays 21st/ Sox 23rd (lost for Dunn) The past few drafts the Jays have had a slight advantage on the Sox, yet in that same time period the Jays have built a top 3 system, and the Sox have fallen to dead last. You don't need high draft picks to succeed, but you do have invest resources and commit to it. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ptatc Posted January 10, 2012 Share Posted January 10, 2012 QUOTE (bigruss22 @ Jan 10, 2012 -> 02:05 PM) They only recently revamped their scouting department, and that's when they started seeing big changes in their farm system. They haven't drafted that far from the Sox in that period: 2009: Jays 21st/ Sox 23rd 2010: Jays 11th/ Sox 13th 2011: Jays 21st/ Sox 23rd (lost for Dunn) The past few drafts the Jays have had a slight advantage on the Sox, yet in that same time period the Jays have built a top 3 system, and the Sox have fallen to dead last. You don't need high draft picks to succeed, but you do have invest resources and commit to it. you need to look a little deeper than that. part of it the sox top draft picks for a few of those years are in the MLB. Beckham, Sale etc. The job of the minors is to get players to the MLB or use as trades. If the sox are moving them to the MLB sooner, that isn't a penatly. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ptatc Posted January 10, 2012 Share Posted January 10, 2012 QUOTE (Jordan4life @ Jan 10, 2012 -> 02:04 PM) Nice rebuttal. Thank You. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ptatc Posted January 10, 2012 Share Posted January 10, 2012 QUOTE (SOXOBAMA @ Jan 10, 2012 -> 02:02 PM) Braves, Angels, Phillies, Yankees and Rangers all have a great farm system and major league team. So teams don't have to suck for many years to become a true contender. the rangers have been awful for years until just two years ago. their number of wins was in the 70's most years. I will give you that the phillies always seems to draft well regardless of position. It can be done, but it more rare than people think. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bigruss Posted January 10, 2012 Share Posted January 10, 2012 QUOTE (ptatc @ Jan 10, 2012 -> 02:12 PM) you need to look a little deeper than that. part of it the sox top draft picks for a few of those years are in the MLB. Beckham, Sale etc. The job of the minors is to get players to the MLB or use as trades. If the sox are moving them to the MLB sooner, that isn't a penatly. It's not just a 3 player difference though, some guys in the Jays system ranked as their 25-30 best prospects are top 10, if not top 5 prospects for us. That is insanely bad. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ptatc Posted January 10, 2012 Share Posted January 10, 2012 QUOTE (bigruss22 @ Jan 10, 2012 -> 02:05 PM) They only recently revamped their scouting department, and that's when they started seeing big changes in their farm system. They haven't drafted that far from the Sox in that period: 2009: Jays 21st/ Sox 23rd 2010: Jays 11th/ Sox 13th 2011: Jays 21st/ Sox 23rd (lost for Dunn) The past few drafts the Jays have had a slight advantage on the Sox, yet in that same time period the Jays have built a top 3 system, and the Sox have fallen to dead last. You don't need high draft picks to succeed, but you do have invest resources and commit to it. Over paying unproven prospects does help. many players slide in the draft because some organization refuse to pay high prices. If you continually do this you will eventually hit on a few. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Balta1701 Posted January 10, 2012 Share Posted January 10, 2012 QUOTE (ptatc @ Jan 10, 2012 -> 03:17 PM) Over paying unproven prospects does help. many players slide in the draft because some organization refuse to pay high prices. If you continually do this you will eventually hit on a few. However, the new CBA has effectively ended that practice. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Balta1701 Posted January 10, 2012 Share Posted January 10, 2012 QUOTE (bigruss22 @ Jan 10, 2012 -> 03:16 PM) It's not just a 3 player difference though, some guys in the Jays system ranked as their 25-30 best prospects are top 10, if not top 5 prospects for us. That is insanely bad. We've also been content to move guys to make compete-now trades, while the Blue Jays have made the exact opposite sort of moves. That plays into it big time also. Especially given that one of the trades the Sox made was a really bad one. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jordan4life_2007 Posted January 10, 2012 Share Posted January 10, 2012 QUOTE (ptatc @ Jan 10, 2012 -> 02:15 PM) the rangers have been awful for years until just two years ago. their number of wins was in the 70's most years. I will give you that the phillies always seems to draft well regardless of position. It can be done, but it more rare than people think. lol. Yeah, how many current Rangers were top 10 draft picks? Hamilton and? And he came via trade. How many of their current top prospects were #10 picks? Stop trying to pigeon hole the success of other organizations to make the White Sox look less inept. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SOXOBAMA Posted January 10, 2012 Author Share Posted January 10, 2012 Over paying unproven prospects does help. many players slide in the draft because some organization refuse to pay high prices. If you continually do this you will eventually hit on a few. The Sox might be paying for an unproven prospect and I hope they do sign Cespedes. I believe this guy will be a huge star Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Marty34 Posted January 10, 2012 Share Posted January 10, 2012 Farm system rankings have jumped the shark this offseason. Which will happen first, the Sox winning a playoff series or they have a top 10 farm system? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Balta1701 Posted January 10, 2012 Share Posted January 10, 2012 QUOTE (Jordan4life @ Jan 10, 2012 -> 03:20 PM) lol. Yeah, how many current Rangers were top 10 draft picks? Hamilton and? And he came via trade. How many of their current top prospects were #10 picks? Stop trying to pigeon hole the success of other organizations to make the White Sox look less inept. See, these 2 teams are very interesting comparisons, because these 2 teams have also had 1 other benefit the Sox haven't had. They've been able to grab a key piece because they haven't really been competitive, so they could afford to give playing time to Jose Bautista and Nelson Cruz, 2 very late-bloomers, when few other teams could. The Rangers also had a big advantage in drafting and then trading away Teixeira, who was a top of the draft pick himself. Those guys (Feliz, Andrus, Harrison) have been huge for them too. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jordan4life_2007 Posted January 10, 2012 Share Posted January 10, 2012 QUOTE (Balta1701 @ Jan 10, 2012 -> 02:23 PM) See, these 2 teams are very interesting comparisons, because these 2 teams have also had 1 other benefit the Sox haven't had. They've been able to grab a key piece because they haven't really been competitive, so they could afford to give playing time to Jose Bautista and Nelson Cruz, 2 very late-bloomers, when few other teams could. The Rangers also had a big advantage in drafting and then trading away Teixeira, who was a top of the draft pick himself. Those guys (Feliz, Andrus, Harrison) have been huge for them too. Fact of the matter is this isn't the NBA where you better have a top #5 pick to land a star. The White Sox are universally recognized as having the worst collection of farm talent year-in, year-out. And it's not because they graduated a couple guys really fast or because of draft position. Yawnnnnn. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bigruss Posted January 10, 2012 Share Posted January 10, 2012 QUOTE (Jordan4life @ Jan 10, 2012 -> 02:27 PM) Fact of the matter is this isn't the NBA where you better have a top #5 pick to land a star. The White Sox are universally recognized as having the worst collection of farm talent year-in, year-out. And it's not because they graduated a couple guys really fast or because of draft position. Yawnnnnn. Graduating a player every year from the system (which btw happens all over, not just here) may prevent the Sox from being a few slots better than worst, but that doesn't really change much. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DirtySox Posted January 10, 2012 Share Posted January 10, 2012 Jordan is taking care of things quite nicely here. I'm always amused that people think the only way to have a good farm system is to have 10 losing seasons in a row. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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