DirtySox Posted January 10, 2012 Share Posted January 10, 2012 QUOTE (bigruss22 @ Jan 10, 2012 -> 02:30 PM) Graduating a player every year from the system (which btw happens all over, not just here) may prevent the Sox from being a few slots better than worst, but that doesn't really change much. Indeed. Graduating players happens everywhere. Decent farm systems have depth, and the ability to replenish said graduations. With the White Sox, it's "oh s***, there's nothing left." Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bigruss Posted January 10, 2012 Share Posted January 10, 2012 (edited) QUOTE (DirtySox @ Jan 10, 2012 -> 02:31 PM) Jordan is taking care of things quite nicely here. I'm always amused that people think the only way to have a good farm system is to have 10 losing seasons in a row. As Balta pointed out, it will be harder to build a good farm system while drafting lower in the CBA, but teams need to learn to shift those resources it would take to sign these guys into scouting and development. It shouldn't be a race to who can spend the most on bonuses anymore, it'll be about coaching and identifying talent earlier. Edit: And this is what the Jays have been investing in too. Edited January 10, 2012 by bigruss22 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bigruss Posted January 10, 2012 Share Posted January 10, 2012 QUOTE (DirtySox @ Jan 10, 2012 -> 02:33 PM) Indeed. Graduating players happens everywhere. Decent farm systems have depth, and the ability to replenish said graduations. With the White Sox, it's "oh s***, there's nothing left." Exactly, you're left with a bare cupboard after 1 trade or 1 call up, or you can't make a trade because you only have that one piece and can't afford to give it up. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DirtySox Posted January 10, 2012 Share Posted January 10, 2012 (edited) QUOTE (bigruss22 @ Jan 10, 2012 -> 02:34 PM) It shouldn't be a race to who can spend the most on bonuses anymore, it'll be about coaching and identifying talent earlier. Agreed. Though I'm not confident in that regard for the White Sox currently. I'd love for them to prove me wrong though. Edited January 10, 2012 by DirtySox Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bigruss Posted January 10, 2012 Share Posted January 10, 2012 BTW, ranked farm systems don't mean much to me if it means having a sustainably competitive MLB team. If you are trading 3-4 prospects for young, stud cost controlled MLB players than I think that is a viable use of the farm system. I understand the failure rate of prospects, and using them to acquire young studs is fine because that is the point of a farm system anyways. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
2nd_city_saint787 Posted January 10, 2012 Share Posted January 10, 2012 So what happens if Dunn and Rios are good next year and you've traded everything else around them? You have to give them a shot at turning it around under the new coaches. Could you imagine how irate you and the whole fan base would be if Dunn puts up 40/100, Rios puts up 2010 numbers but the rest of their team id filled with unproven spects that might not even pan out....It was just a year ago(2010) where dunn and rios put up a combined 60 home runs, 191 RBIs, and scored 174 runs. You gotta see if the can turn it around, if you add that to the consistency of PK, AJ, Lexi, get what we expect out of Dayan, have a whole year of Morel and De Aza playing like they did down the stretch the Sox have themselves a championship caliber offense. As far as the bullpen goes, look at what the Rays did last year, they almost lost every piece of that pen from the previous year and they still made the playoffs. With Reed, Crain, And Thornton youve got youre good 7th-8th-9th inning guys which are the most valuable of the relievers, you've got Ohman who is a very good Loogy and a guy who can come in late innings to get out a tough lefty. Then youve got so many guys who can contribute to the bullpen that will battle it out in spring training and the best ones will win those spots. I like having the competition because relievers are always so hard to project so I'd want the best man coming out of spring instead of a set guy who might blow up anyway. One lefty spot left in the pen (if they go with 3 LHers) and Stultz, Veal, Quintana, Hernandez, and maybe even Santiago(who If slated for the pen would be my pick to win the spot) all battling it out. Then you've got guys like guys like Stewart, Axelrod, Marinez, Infante, and Castro(though im hoping hes being used as a starter) battling it out for the RH spots. I would like another RH to throw into that mix and theres still plenty of time and bodies in FA to get that. Just sit back, relax, and strap it down. Just because theos making moves doesnt mean kenny has to too. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DirtySox Posted January 10, 2012 Share Posted January 10, 2012 QUOTE (bigruss22 @ Jan 10, 2012 -> 02:38 PM) BTW, ranked farm systems don't mean much to me if it means having a sustainably competitive MLB team. If you are trading 3-4 prospects for young, stud cost controlled MLB players than I think that is a viable use of the farm system. I understand the failure rate of prospects, and using them to acquire young studs is fine because that is the point of a farm system anyways. Absolutely. Which makes me even more dumbfounded that the farm has gotten to this point. Kenny the trader should want to have as many trading bullets as possible. The more quality prospects he has to flip, the more potential for adding the proven MLB players he so desires to the team. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bigruss Posted January 10, 2012 Share Posted January 10, 2012 QUOTE (DirtySox @ Jan 10, 2012 -> 02:42 PM) Absolutely. Which makes me even more dumbfounded that the farm has gotten to this point. Kenny the trader should want to have as many trading bullets as possible. The more quality prospects he has to flip, the more potential for adding the proven MLB players he so desires to the team. But he has to sign Teahen and friends to ridiculous contracts! Seriously, I've stated this many times on this site, if the Sox had cut $5mm ish from each year's payroll they would have seen that investment return huge dividends, and you probably avoid the need to go to a $125mm payroll in the first place. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SOXOBAMA Posted January 10, 2012 Author Share Posted January 10, 2012 Just think of rotation of Gio Gonzalez John Danks Daniel Hudson Gavin Floyd Chris Sale. Pisses me off that we gave up that much talent.. I don't blame KW for the Peavy trade but the Gio and Hudson deals were brutal... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bigruss Posted January 10, 2012 Share Posted January 10, 2012 QUOTE (SOXOBAMA @ Jan 10, 2012 -> 02:52 PM) Just think of rotation of Gio Gonzalez John Danks Daniel Hudson Gavin Floyd Chris Sale. Pisses me off that we gave up that much talent.. I don't blame KW for the Peavy trade but the Gio and Hudson deals were brutal... I don't even mind the Gio trade, we targeted a young, cost controlled OF with OBP and power, unfortunately it didn't work out (s*** happens in baseball). The Hudson deal was flat out stupid, and really pointed to the necessity of change in perspective for the White Sox FO. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SOXOBAMA Posted January 10, 2012 Author Share Posted January 10, 2012 I don't even mind the Gio trade, we targeted a young, cost controlled OF with OBP and power, unfortunately it didn't work out (s*** happens in baseball). The Hudson deal was flat out stupid, and really pointed to the necessity of change in perspective for the White Sox FO. Swisher isn't a CF so that trade should never had happened. Cause we had Q in LF and Dye in RF. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
flavum Posted January 10, 2012 Share Posted January 10, 2012 (edited) QUOTE (SOXOBAMA @ Jan 10, 2012 -> 02:52 PM) Just think of rotation of Gio Gonzalez John Danks Daniel Hudson Gavin Floyd Chris Sale. Pisses me off that we gave up that much talent.. I don't blame KW for the Peavy trade but the Gio and Hudson deals were brutal... Pointless exercise. If you keep Gio one year, maybe you don't have Danks. The team is different. The draft order is different in future years, and you don't have Sale or possibly Hudson. Edited January 10, 2012 by flavum Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Eminor3rd Posted January 10, 2012 Share Posted January 10, 2012 QUOTE (2nd_city_saint787 @ Jan 10, 2012 -> 02:38 PM) So what happens if Dunn and Rios are good next year and you've traded everything else around them? You have to give them a shot at turning it around under the new coaches. Then we add at the deadline using our newly acquired prospects. "What if our bad team plays well?" Then great! But only a fool would operate and plan on the assumtion of that happening. Look, in an ideal world, we could always just keep all our expensive players in case they might play better, but money is an object, whether the fans like it or not, and whether JR is making money or not. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ptatc Posted January 10, 2012 Share Posted January 10, 2012 QUOTE (DirtySox @ Jan 10, 2012 -> 02:31 PM) Jordan is taking care of things quite nicely here. I'm always amused that people think the only way to have a good farm system is to have 10 losing seasons in a row. Of course you can have a good one but the question earlier was having one of the top farm systems. The teams with top farm systems 1. typically draft high, 2. don't trade prospects for major league talent. these were the points, not if you can have a good farm system. Do the sox have a good farm system: no. Have they had good draft postions: no. Do they have a GM that would rather trade prospect for proven MLB talent: yes. Usually his trades work out, lately they haven't. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SOXOBAMA Posted January 10, 2012 Author Share Posted January 10, 2012 Of course you can have a good one but the question earlier was having one of the top farm systems. The teams with top farm systems 1. typically draft high, 2. don't trade prospects for major league talent. these were the points, not if you can have a good farm system. Do the sox have a good farm system: no. Have they had good draft postions: no. Do they have a GM that would rather trade prospect for proven MLB talent: yes. Usually his trades work out, lately they haven't. We should be able to have a nice draft this year.. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
elrockinMT Posted January 10, 2012 Share Posted January 10, 2012 Can we give KW a pass for 2012? Can we afford too? My thought is we have no choice (obviosuly) and hopfelly he gets things under control and we compete. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SOXOBAMA Posted January 10, 2012 Author Share Posted January 10, 2012 Can we give KW a pass for 2012? Can we afford too? My thought is we have no choice (obviosuly) and hopfelly he gets things under control and we compete. The only pass I will give to is Ventura. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Balta1701 Posted January 10, 2012 Share Posted January 10, 2012 QUOTE (elrockinMT @ Jan 10, 2012 -> 04:33 PM) Can we give KW a pass for 2012? Can we afford too? My thought is we have no choice (obviosuly) and hopfelly he gets things under control and we compete. You pretty much have no choice but to do so. KW offered to either resign or take another job in the org last offseason. If the answer to that is "No", and you're also going to commit to pulling back on salary and restructuring your team, then you're committing to a process that really needs 3 years to evaluate. You can't evaluate how things have gone in 2012 until after 2014, when the Dunn and Rios contracts are clearing. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Balta1701 Posted January 10, 2012 Share Posted January 10, 2012 If, for example, Castro and Molina have moved into solid rotation prospects in their first or second season by 2014, and Viciedo, Morel, and De Aza are contributing solidly, then the 2012 season was a huge success. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
klaus kinski Posted January 10, 2012 Share Posted January 10, 2012 QUOTE (SOXOBAMA @ Jan 10, 2012 -> 09:06 AM) on this off season. We need at least 3-4 bullpen spots filled, a starting OF, backup middle IF, and get our minor leagues on solid ground. The team on the north side seems to be making changes daily, I think the talent they are bringing in SUCKS but at least they are major league talent. Plus they got Rizzo and might get Jacob Turner or Nick Castellanos. They have a real baseball guy and real gm and a game plan. But we have Bud Selig going to Soxfest-oh boy Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SOXOBAMA Posted January 10, 2012 Author Share Posted January 10, 2012 They have a real baseball guy and real gm and a game plan. But we have Bud Selig going to Soxfest-oh boy Selig is giving an award to JR. What's wrong with him being there and doing that? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
caulfield12 Posted January 10, 2012 Share Posted January 10, 2012 (edited) QUOTE (Jordan4life @ Jan 10, 2012 -> 02:04 PM) Nice rebuttal. Or Mike Pepperoni Piazza. The Sox best guys over a decade (developed internally) were Ordonez (FA), C-Lee (FA), Durham, Buehrle, Crede and Rowand. Not so many Top 10 draft picks in that group. Edited January 10, 2012 by caulfield12 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
southsider2k5 Posted January 10, 2012 Share Posted January 10, 2012 QUOTE (SOXOBAMA @ Jan 10, 2012 -> 01:31 PM) Two different markets.. Plus you said it yourself are fan base is bandwagon jumpers. Sooner or later this team needs to build for the future, for the better of this organzation. And blowing all of your fan base to do rebuild just means that the rebuild has that much smaller of a margin for error, just like say Oakland who can't afford any payroll because fans don't come. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
southsider2k5 Posted January 10, 2012 Share Posted January 10, 2012 QUOTE (SOXOBAMA @ Jan 10, 2012 -> 01:40 PM) I'd be patient for about 5 seasons, if that was the direction that Sox wanted to go. I am glad the Sox have brought in some new scouts this off season from the Jays and Twins organzation. Then you don't want to do a Tampa rebuild,. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
southsider2k5 Posted January 10, 2012 Share Posted January 10, 2012 QUOTE (bigruss22 @ Jan 10, 2012 -> 01:44 PM) No, no you don't. Look at the Blue Jays for example A. The Blue Jays have never done a full sell like Obama is advocating. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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