Official 2011-2012 NFL Thread

[Balta1701]

Right now Green Bay looks head and shoulders above everyone but their D has given up a lot of points, I would really love to see the Bears and Packers play right now that the Bears are gelling to see where we are at level wise.

RIght now is about the time when the Bears would step up and play like monsters against the Packers.

 

Problem is, the next game isn't for a while, and it's in Lambeau.

[Jenksismyhero]

So Lovie gets no credit whatsoever for producing a top 5 defense? The guy emphasizes special teams more than nearly any other coach in the league, but gets no credit for when they succeed?

 

What's your opinion of the Ray Lewis led Ravens of the past 10-15 seasons? They only win because of their defense, do you consider them a fluke? All those defensive touchdowns Ed Reed scored, just a fluke?

 

I'm not saying he's a bad coach. I'm saying if you give this franchise another average coach they wouldn't be any worse off. They'd get the same timely turnovers (and scores) and the same timely special teams plays (re: hall of famer Hester) However, I do think having a GOOD coach would have helped this team win even more the last 6-7 years.

 

Pretty sure the Ravens have stayed pretty consistent despite the coach in charge. That's my point here. Billick wasn't some great coach, and neither is Harbough. That franchise wins because they have hall of famers up and down their defense.

[LittleHurt05]

Ditka took a crappy team and molded into one of the greatest teams ever (if not the best). He's always going to be loved for that, though I do think the praise is a bit much. He pretty much flamed out the last few years.

 

Speaking of, the NFL Network's special on Ditka was great, if anyone hasn't seen it.

 

And he only managed to make one Super Bowl appearance with one of the greatest teams ever. There was no excuse for not winning another NFC championship at the least.

[Jenksismyhero]

Wait, so Ditka has a team full of Hall of Famers, and he had a crappy team. Lovie has maybe two(if you count Hester), and he is lucky? Excuse me while I LMFAO.

 

I'm not arguing Ditka was a hall of fame coach so my position isn't really inconsistent.

[Jenksismyhero]

Yes when Charles Tillman forces a fumble it is total luck. It has nothing to do what Lovie Smith preaches and teaches in every practice.

 

So for every Tillman fumble he's got what, like 5-6 missed tackles. Is that also part of coaching?

 

And do you really think that coaches for other teams just ignore the importance of turnovers?

[southsider2k5]

I'm not arguing Ditka was a hall of fame coach so my position isn't really inconsistent.

 

No one here has said that either. The position is Lovie Smith is a good coach, not a Hall of Famer. No one has said Ditka should be a HOF Coach here either.

 

At the end of the day, it is impossible to argue that the Ditka teams had less talent than the Smith teams.

[Jenksismyhero]

And he only managed to make one Super Bowl appearance with one of the greatest teams ever. There was no excuse for not winning another NFC championship at the least.

 

Agree completely.

[Jenksismyhero]

No one here has said that either. The position is Lovie Smith is a good coach, not a Hall of Famer. No one has said Ditka should be a HOF Coach here either.

 

At the end of the day, it is impossible to argue that the Ditka teams had less talent than the Smith teams.

 

Who's making that claim? My only point was that Ditka took a bad franchise and in a few seasons created (with the help of others, i'm not saying Ditka is some God of coaching or anything) one of the best teams ever and won a SB.

[MexSoxFan#1]

This Lovie "love" is freaking hilarious. The guy is incredibly average at best. His in-game decisions are right up there with Andy Reid. Remove Devin Hester and a top 5 defense for the majority of his tenure and this team misses the playoffs every freaking year. Lovie is the luckiest coach in the league, no one else is even close. Look at some of the impressive wins this year against Atl and now Det. Defensive TO's into points and special teams. Fluke, fluke, fluke. That's the story of the Bears' success during his tenure. That's true for the SB run (mostly fluke) and last years NFC Champ run (all fluke).

 

Re: Luck. This is turning into the Bush v. Williams debate, where 6 months of talking about it has made Bush (Luck) into a 100% guarantee. How'd Bush's career turn out? I'm sure Luck will be a good NFL QB, potentially great as all signs point to him being ahead of the curve at his age. But this crap about trading away a Hall of Famer is hilarious. There's no other option for the Colts. You draft him and you keep him. PERIOD. You cannot take the chance of Luck being a bust (happened before) and Manning still having some years left. Take the best of both worlds - hall of fame qb for another 3-4 seasons with his replacement waiting in the wings. Two of the best QB's right now - Brady and Rogers - both said this was a huge part of why they're as good as they are right now.

Lovie is one of the reasons Chicago has a solid D, our main problems have been on the offensive side of the ball...Lovie's defensive philosophy is a bend and don't break D, don't give up big plays and make the other team cough up the ball, turnovers aren't "luck" GMAFB, more like good teams create their own breaks.

 

[southsider2k5]

Who's making that claim? My only point was that Ditka took a bad franchise and in a few seasons created (with the help of others, i'm not saying Ditka is some God of coaching or anything) one of the best teams ever and won a SB.

 

He got a team full of Hall of Famers. A lot of people win Super Bowls like that. Smith has accomplished a lot more in a relative sense., with a significant amount less talent than Ditka had.

[MexSoxFan#1]

Ditka took a crappy team and molded into one of the greatest teams ever (if not the best). He's always going to be loved for that, though I do think the praise is a bit much. He pretty much flamed out the last few years.

 

Speaking of, the NFL Network's special on Ditka was great, if anyone hasn't seen it.

Wow, just wow.

Let's be honest, Ditka inherited one if not the best defenses ever, they won the SB because of that defense, Buddy Ryan deserved more credit.That 80's Bears team SHOULD have won more than just one SB, if we are gonna talk about luck, Ditka is it.

 

Ditka had an all time great D, had Walter Payton and a stud O line and you only get one SB appearance? Fail.

[Jenksismyhero]

He got a team full of Hall of Famers. A lot of people win Super Bowls like that. Smith has accomplished a lot more in a relative sense., with a significant amount less talent than Ditka had.

 

For what it's worth, Ditka "only" had 3 HoF's on his roster - Hampton, Payton and Singletary. I think Lovie's got 2 with good shots (Urlacher and Hester) and maybe three (Briggs, though probably a stretch).

 

[southsider2k5]

For what it's worth, Ditka "only" had 3 HoF's on his roster - Hampton, Payton and Singletary. I think Lovie's got 2 with good shots (Urlacher and Hester) and maybe three (Briggs, though probably a stretch).

 

So again, even in that respect, there is no comparison between the players that Ditka had. Smith has done more with less.

[LittleHurt05]

For what it's worth, Ditka "only" had 3 HoF's on his roster - Hampton, Payton and Singletary. I think Lovie's got 2 with good shots (Urlacher and Hester) and maybe three (Briggs, though probably a stretch).

 

Richard Dent

[Kyyle23]

This Lovie "love" is freaking hilarious. The guy is incredibly average at best. His in-game decisions are right up there with Andy Reid. Remove Devin Hester and a top 5 defense for the majority of his tenure and this team misses the playoffs every freaking year. Lovie is the luckiest coach in the league, no one else is even close. Look at some of the impressive wins this year against Atl and now Det. Defensive TO's into points and special teams. Fluke, fluke, fluke. That's the story of the Bears' success during his tenure. That's true for the SB run (mostly fluke) and last years NFC Champ run (all fluke).

 

thank you for proving my Fluke point. You are exhibit A

[StrangeSox]

This Lovie "love" is freaking hilarious. The guy is incredibly average at best. His in-game decisions are right up there with Andy Reid. Remove Devin Hester and a top 5 defense for the majority of his tenure and this team misses the playoffs every freaking year. Lovie is the luckiest coach in the league, no one else is even close. Look at some of the impressive wins this year against Atl and now Det. Defensive TO's into points and special teams. Fluke, fluke, fluke. That's the story of the Bears' success during his tenure. That's true for the SB run (mostly fluke) and last years NFC Champ run (all fluke).

 

"If you make two of three aspects of his football team suck..." is not a good way to start a convincing argument.

[Rowand44]

This Lovie "love" is freaking hilarious. The guy is incredibly average at best. His in-game decisions are right up there with Andy Reid. Remove Devin Hester and a top 5 defense for the majority of his tenure and this team misses the playoffs every freaking year. Lovie is the luckiest coach in the league, no one else is even close. Look at some of the impressive wins this year against Atl and now Det. Defensive TO's into points and special teams. Fluke, fluke, fluke. That's the story of the Bears' success during his tenure. That's true for the SB run (mostly fluke) and last years NFC Champ run (all fluke).

What the hell?

[cabiness42]

I want to add that the Bears' dominance on special teams is much more than just Hester having fallen to them in the draft. Aside from returns, the Bears are near the best in the league every year in FG kicking, punting, and KO and punt coverage. The franchise has made it a point to be excellent on special teams, and in a salary cap league, that's a very good strategy, since, apart from Hester and Gould, the people that do such excellent work don't cost a whole lot.

 

It also blends well with a defensive scheme that forces you to move down the field in small chunks, since as long as the offense isn't turning the ball over, the special teams are making you go a long way to score.

[CrimsonWeltall]

You're right, only good coaches tell their teams to create TO's and score defensive TD's. Come on...

 

If only Lovie told the offense to "score more touchdowns", the Bears would have been a way better team during his tenure

[Kyyle23]

he made exactly the argument i expected from people who claim its all fluke/luck. The Bears arent good only lucky/they never play anyone/benefit from hall of famers/take away urlacher and they suck/ turnovers are luck/superbowl run was luck/ditka is awesome. the end

 

I like Lovie, i recognize he isnt perfect, but nobody could be that lucky for that long

[StrangeSox]

he made exactly the argument i expected from people who claim its all fluke/luck. The Bears arent good only lucky/they never play anyone/benefit from hall of famers/take away urlacher and they suck/ turnovers are luck/superbowl run was luck/ditka is awesome. the end

 

I like Lovie, i recognize he isnt perfect, but nobody could be that lucky for that long

 

A few years ago I was on the "Lovie sucks!" bandwagon but have completely changed my mind on that. He's good, not great. He is awful as clock/TO management (though not getting the plays in is a different matter this year) and his challenges are generally pretty terrible. He sometimes gets out-coached in the 2nd half of games, failing to make the necessary adjustments at halftime.

 

But, more often than not, he's been successful in developing and implementing his defensive schemes. He's gotten fantastic support around him (minus Martz) and gotten the most out of the cast of players he has.

[bmags]

I was on the lovie sucks thing before last year. But the nfc championship game turned me on him. His team played brilliantly. A fantastic scheme executed wonderfully, yet, a crucial mistake in putting in collins lost us the game. It was the definition of Lovie.

 

But, Lovie's teams are among the top in turnovers every year. That is not luck.

[DukeNukeEm]

Wait, so Ditka has a team full of Hall of Famers, and he had a crappy team. Lovie has maybe two(if you count Hester), and he is lucky? Excuse me while I LMFAO.

Lovie has 3. Peppers is probably bound for the HoF.

 

Speaking of Pep, gotta give Angelo credit for that one. A mega contract that actually justifies itself is pretty rare.

Edited November 15, 2011 by DukeNukeEm

[Quin]

Lovie has 3. Peppers is probably bound for the HoF.

 

Speaking of Pep, gotta give Angelo credit for that one. A mega contract that actually justifies itself is pretty rare.

 

4.

 

Peppers, Urlacher, Briggs, Hester.

[DukeNukeEm]

Lance Briggs is in that Hall of Very Good. I dont see him getting in, and I'm not sure he really should.