Official 2011-2012 NFL Thread

[Steve9347]

I don't really think Briggs is in the Hall of anything.

[Quin]

Lance Briggs is in that Hall of Very Good. I dont see him getting in, and I'm not sure he really should.

 

Well, if he gets 2 more Pro Bowls...which he looks like he can...that'd be 8. And eight Pro Bowls is nothing to sneeze at.

[southsider2k5]

4.

 

Peppers, Urlacher, Briggs, Hester.

 

Peppers needs to sustain himself for a while longer, he is on the right track though. Briggs, no way.

[DukeNukeEm]

I don't really think Briggs is in the Hall of anything.

A little overboard here.

 

Linebackers who are great at coverage, getting off blocks and almost automatic at tackling are really rare. He's an underrated rusher too, but he hasnt been asked to do that much in a while.

 

Question- Peppers plays out his days in Chicago and there's no big negative surprises in his career, is he going into Canton as a Bear?

Edited November 15, 2011 by DukeNukeEm

[GoSox05]

A little overboard here.

 

Linebackers who are great at coverage, getting off blocks and almost automatic at tackling are really rare. He's an underrated rusher too, but he hasnt been asked to do that much in a while.

 

Question- Peppers plays out his days in Chicago and there's no big negative surprises in his career, is he going into Canton as a Bear?

 

Players in football don't go into the hall of fame under certain teams.

[Jenksismyhero]

A few years ago I was on the "Lovie sucks!" bandwagon but have completely changed my mind on that. He's good, not great. He is awful as clock/TO management (though not getting the plays in is a different matter this year) and his challenges are generally pretty terrible. He sometimes gets out-coached in the 2nd half of games, failing to make the necessary adjustments at halftime.

 

But, more often than not, he's been successful in developing and implementing his defensive schemes. He's gotten fantastic support around him (minus Martz) and gotten the most out of the cast of players he has.

 

This just proves my point. He's terrible at making COACHING decisions, but because he implements a scheme (like other coaches don't) and because he preaches tackling and generating turnovers (as if other coaches don't) he's good. GMAB guys. PLAYERS make the plays. Coaches make the right game management calls. You cannot give Lovie credit for coaching hires because he goes through them like crazy. For every guy like Marinelli we get stuck with Ron Turner. It's a joke. It's people covering for an incredibly average coach.

 

 

[Jenksismyhero]

I want to add that the Bears' dominance on special teams is much more than just Hester having fallen to them in the draft. Aside from returns, the Bears are near the best in the league every year in FG kicking, punting, and KO and punt coverage. The franchise has made it a point to be excellent on special teams, and in a salary cap league, that's a very good strategy, since, apart from Hester and Gould, the people that do such excellent work don't cost a whole lot.

 

It also blends well with a defensive scheme that forces you to move down the field in small chunks, since as long as the offense isn't turning the ball over, the special teams are making you go a long way to score.

 

Hey you're right, add another HOF candidate in Gould. One of the most accurate kickers of all time.

 

I'm sure Lovie really coached him up to be the kicker he is today though right?

[ZoomSlowik]

Hey you're right, add another HOF candidate in Gould. One of the most accurate kickers of all time.

 

I'm sure Lovie really coached him up to be the kicker he is today though right?

 

You do realize that there's only one player that did nothing but kick in the Hall of Fame, right?

 

There aren't any guys there solely on the strength of their returning ability either, and putting Peppers and Briggs in is a bit of a stretch as well. Keep in mind that guys like Chris Carter and Charles Hailey aren't even in yet.

[Jenksismyhero]

You do realize that there's only one player that did nothing but kick in the Hall of Fame, right?

 

There aren't any guys there solely on the strength of their returning ability either, and putting Peppers and Briggs in is a bit of a stretch as well. Keep in mind that guys like Chris Carter and Charles Hailey aren't even in yet.

 

Hmm, alright fine. Still one of the best kickers in the league the last 3-4 seasons.

[RockRaines]

You do realize that there's only one player that did nothing but kick in the Hall of Fame, right?

 

There aren't any guys there solely on the strength of their returning ability either, and putting Peppers and Briggs in is a bit of a stretch as well. Keep in mind that guys like Chris Carter and Charles Hailey aren't even in yet.

Cris Carter. And exactly. The HOF of the NFL is no joke.

 

Here are all of the LB's in the HOF. I dont see Briggs as a peer in this group.

 

 

Linebackers (22)

Chuck Bednarik (C-LB) 1949-1962 Bobby Bell (also DE) 1963-1974 Nick Buoniconti 1962-1974, 1976 Dick Butkus 1965-1973 Harry Carson 1976-1988 George Connor (also DT, OT) 1948-1955 Bill George 1952-1966 Jack Ham 1971-1982 Chris Hanburger 1965-1978 Ted Hendricks 1969-1983 Sam Huff 1956-1967, 1969 Rickey Jackson LB (also DE) 1981-1995 Jack Lambert 1974-1984 Willie Lanier 1967-1977 Ray Nitschke 1958-1972 Les Richter 1954-1962 Joe Schmidt 1953-1965 Mike Singletary 1981-1992 Lawrence Taylor 1981-1993 Derrick Thomas 1989-1999 Andre Tippett 1982-1993 Dave Wilcox 1964-1974

[southsider2k5]

Hey you're right, add another HOF candidate in Gould. One of the most accurate kickers of all time.

 

I'm sure Lovie really coached him up to be the kicker he is today though right?

 

Kevin Butler is the Bears all time leading scorer. Again, point 85 bears.

[Balta1701]

Cris Carter. And exactly. The HOF of the NFL is no joke.

 

Here are all of the LB's in the HOF. I dont see Briggs as a peer in this group.

Urlacher and Lewis are the only 2 obvious HOF LB's I've seen in the last decade.

 

That 6 player a year limit is really important here.

[Balta1701]

Kevin Butler is the Bears all time leading scorer. Again, point 85 bears.

Gould is 70% of the way to catching him (or so)

[ZoomSlowik]

Cris Carter. And exactly. The HOF of the NFL is no joke.

 

Here are all of the LB's in the HOF. I dont see Briggs as a peer in this group.

 

LOL, I screwed up Haley too. Go me.

 

 

[StrangeSox]

This just proves my point. He's terrible at making COACHING decisions, but because he implements a scheme (like other coaches don't) and because he preaches tackling and generating turnovers (as if other coaches don't) he's good. GMAB guys. PLAYERS make the plays.

 

Other coaches implement schemes and fail. Other coaches preach tackling and generating turnovers but don't have the same sustained success that Lovie as had. In-game decisions aren't the only or even necessarily the biggest responsibility a coach has. Your arguments here have relied on hand-waving away every one of his positives.

 

Coaches make the right game management calls.

 

Right, and Lovie does that pretty frequently on the defensive end of things. There's also roster and personality management.

 

You cannot give Lovie credit for coaching hires because he goes through them like crazy. For every guy like Marinelli and Tice and Toub we get stuck with Ron Turner. It's a joke. It's people covering for an incredibly average coach.

Has he gone through an abnormal number of coaches?

 

 

[StrangeSox]

Hey you're right, add another HOF candidate in Gould. One of the most accurate kickers of all time.

 

I'm sure Lovie really coached him up to be the kicker he is today though right?

 

Accurate, but also limited in range. Something that Lovie understands and uses Gould effectively within his range.

 

By the time you're done, this team will have 20 HOF's and the '85 Bears will have nothing but scrubs, coached to greatness by the awesome power of Ditka.

[MexSoxFan#1]

Hey you're right, add another HOF candidate in Gould. One of the most accurate kickers of all time.

 

I'm sure Lovie really coached him up to be the kicker he is today though right?

I stopped reading after seeing Gould as possible HOF candidate.

SMH <_>

[MexSoxFan#1]

Accurate, but also limited in range. Something that Lovie understands and uses Gould effectively within his range.

 

By the time you're done, this team will have 20 HOF's and the '85 Bears will have nothing but scrubs, coached to greatness by the awesome power of Ditka.

To even try to argue that the Lovie Smith teams are anywhere as deep talent wise as the Ditka teams is just...asinine.

[Jenksismyhero]

Other coaches implement schemes and fail. Other coaches preach tackling and generating turnovers but don't have the same sustained success that Lovie as had. In-game decisions aren't the only or even necessarily the biggest responsibility a coach has. Your arguments here have relied on hand-waving away every one of his positives.

 

 

 

Right, and Lovie does that pretty frequently on the defensive end of things. There's also roster and personality management.

 

 

Has he gone through an abnormal number of coaches?

 

What's funny is that we all agree he's a terrible in-game coach. But because he has a good defense and because he brought that scheme here, he must be great! Guess who was the Bears defensive coordinators during the good runs (Ron Rivera - 2005, 11-5, 2006, 13-3; Marinelli 2010, 11-5) . Guess who was the D-coordinator when the Bears were bad/average? Lovie (2007, 7-9, 2008, 9-7, 2009, 7-9)

 

He's gone through 3 offensive coordinators (Shea, Turner, Martz) and three d-coordinators (Rivera, himself, Marinelli) in 6.5 seasons. That seems abnormal to me, but maybe not.

 

 

[StrangeSox]

What's funny is that we all agree he's a terrible in-game coach.

 

No, I think we all agree that he is not a good in-game coach, not that he's a terrible in-game coach. Where we disagree is your insistence on discounting every single positive quality about Lovie in order to make your argument.

[Jenksismyhero]

To even try to argue that the Lovie Smith teams are anywhere as deep talent wise as the Ditka teams is just...asinine.

 

No one is doing this and i've repeatedly argued that Ditka SHOULD have won more with what he had and ISN'T some great coach like people think.

 

BTW SS, in the last 2.5 seasons including this one, Gould has increased his range, hitting longs of 52, 54 and 51. 10 of his 12 career 50+ FG's happened during this time. That's not Janikowski range, but it's not exactly amateur hour either.

 

[Jenksismyhero]

No, I think we all agree that he is not a good in-game coach, not that he's a terrible in-game coach. Where we disagree is your insistence on discounting every single positive quality about Lovie in order to make your argument.

 

Tell me what Lovie is even decent at in games.

 

t.o. usage - terrible

challenges - terrible

clock management - atrocious

adjustments - terrible

game planning - average

[Balta1701]

BTW SS, in the last 2.5 seasons including this one, Gould has increased his range, hitting longs of 52, 54 and 51. 10 of his 12 career 50+ FG's happened during this time. That's not Janikowski range, but it's not exactly amateur hour either.

One other thing worth considering Re: Gould's distance is that he plays 8 of his yearly games at Soldier Field. It's not Pittsburgh in terms of wind, but it's the worst playing surface in the NFL, it gets quite cold, and there is a fair amount of wind. None of those are conducive to long field goals, especially late in the year.

[StrangeSox]

No one is doing this and i've repeatedly argued that Ditka SHOULD have won more with what he had and ISN'T some great coach like people think.

 

BTW SS, in the last 2.5 seasons including this one, Gould has increased his range, hitting longs of 52, 54 and 51. 10 of his 12 career 50+ FG's happened during this time. That's not Janikowski range, but it's not exactly amateur hour either.

 

Complete credit must be given to Lovie for perfectly managing Gould, building confidence in him over the years by repeatedly setting him up for success and pushing him, slowly but surely, to expand his comfort zone. Lovie truly is a masterful coach.

[GoSox05]

Aren't the Bears 6-3? You guys should be more happy about the Bears right now.

 

Sure they aren't as good as the Packers, but 6-3 is nice.