Official 2011-2012 NFL Thread

[Kyyle23]

And followed that up with

 

 

 

By your guys' logic Tebow should be considered a good QB. He makes bad to terrible QB decisions, and he can't really throw the ball, but hey he prays a lot and gets his guys motivated to play for him and just wins!

 

right, because Tebow has an 8 year history where he "lucked" into a superbowl, nfc chamionship game and playoff appearances. totally perfect analogy.

[bmags]

A coach preparing his team adequately for each game is a huge part of being an NFL coach.

[Jenksismyhero]

right, because Tebow has an 8 year history where he "lucked" into a superbowl, nfc chamionship game and playoff appearances. totally perfect analogy.

 

I guess we'll see how it plays out. Tebow's 3-1 this year even though it was expected that they'd be 0-4.

 

 

[GoSox05]

I guess we'll see how it plays out. Tebow's 3-1 this year even though it was expected that they'd be 0-4.

 

No his team is 3-1. It has little to do with him. He is completing 41.5% of his passes.

 

Von Miller and Willis McGahee are the reason this team is playing half way good right now.

[StrangeSox]

By your guys' logic Tebow should be considered a good QB. He makes bad to terrible QB decisions, and he can't really throw the ball, but hey he prays a lot and gets his guys motivated to play for him and just wins!

 

 

No, your argument keeps forcing you to discount everything an NFL head coach does outside of calling timeouts and challenges and half-time adjustments.

 

Saying that Lovie is bad at a few things important to coaching but good at other, equally important things is not the same as saying Tebow is a good QB because he motivates his team while sucking at playing QB.

[Jenksismyhero]

No, your argument keeps forcing you to discount everything an NFL head coach does outside of calling timeouts and challenges and half-time adjustments.

 

Saying that Lovie is bad at a few things important to coaching but good at other, equally important things is not the same as saying Tebow is a good QB because he motivates his team while sucking at playing QB.

 

Mmm, k. I forgot NFL head coaches still teach fundamentals and lack any assistant coaches to help them.

 

You're completely overvaluing what Lovie does on a daily basis. I purposefully did the same with Tebow. That was the point.

[RockRaines]

Mmm, k. I forgot NFL head coaches still teach fundamentals and lack any assistant coaches to help them.

 

You're completely overvaluing what Lovie does on a daily basis. I purposefully did the same with Tebow. That was the point.

What does Lovie do on a daily basis? And how is it different from other head coaches?

 

How would he rank against the other NFL coaches if you could give him a number?

[Jenksismyhero]

What does Lovie do on a daily basis? And how is it different from other head coaches?

 

How would he rank against the other NFL coaches if you could give him a number?

 

Guys I'd take ahead of him for sure:

 

Mike McCarthy

Bill Belichick

Mike Tomlin

Sean Payton

Rex Ryan

Jim Harbaugh

Mike Smith

John Harbaugh

Tom Coughlin

 

Maybes (but probably not):

 

Ken Whisenhunt

Jim Schwartz

Mike Munchak

 

So, probably in the 10-14 range, i.e., average.

 

 

 

 

 

[StrangeSox]

Mmm, k. I forgot NFL head coaches still teach fundamentals and lack any assistant coaches to help them.

 

You're completely overvaluing what Lovie does on a daily basis. I purposefully did the same with Tebow. That was the point.

 

It's still not a good comparison. "Being a leader" is a minor aspect of playing QB, something to get you from good-to-great but definitely doesn't make up for being terrible at QB.

 

Conversely, "being a leader" is a very important aspect of the HC's job. In-game decisions are also important, and no one is arguing that Lovie is good at those. We're all sort of laughing that your positions keeps requiring you to discount every positive thing about this team under Lovie's tenure and focus specifically on the things he's not good at.

 

He's an above-average coach who generally fields a winning team. He has a coaching philosophy that has worked well for the defense and ST, which is not surprising given his background. His offenses have been less than desirable, but a major factor in that is a GM who doesn't give him decent personnel. He has assembled a great cast of assistant coaches around him who have embraced his approach and get the players to perform. The game-planning for the Bears has improved over his tenure and he rarely comes out of the gate getting out-coached. His second-half adjustments need improvement, but he's not routinely blowing leads in the 4th quarter like other team do--the issue is usually more an inability to adjust and come back than to hang on to a lead. The TO's on this team are frustrating, and he's made some bad clock-management calls in the past. He has one of the worst challenge records, challenging plays that are clearly not going to be overturned and not challenging plays that easily would be. On both of those issues, though, the problem stems from people under Lovie and not Lovie himself. The TO problems this year have come from a bad play relay system for the offense. The challenges are reviewed and advised by people in the booth. Now, he is responsible for reforming and fixing problems, but he's not throwing the red flag based entirely on his own view of the play.

 

You want to call him average? OK. His length of tenure and record speak otherwise, but he's not in the upper echelon of coaches. That's different from what you came in here saying, that he's "average at best," has been "lucky" in all of his successes, and that he has 4 or 5 future HOF players on the roster and is underachieving.

[Balta1701]

Guys I'd take ahead of him for sure:

 

Mike McCarthy

Bill Belichick

Mike Tomlin

Sean Payton

Rex Ryan

Jim Harbaugh

Mike Smith

John Harbaugh

Tom Coughlin

 

Maybes (but probably not):

 

Ken Whisenhunt

Jim Schwartz

Mike Munchak

 

So, probably in the 10-14 range, i.e., average.

The remarkable thing is of course that 1/2 your list of "Definitenly take them" will be either in your "probably not" or "already was fired" list in about 2 years.

[GoSox05]

Rex Ryan

Jim Harbaugh

Mike Smith

John Harbaugh

 

 

I really don't know how these guys are so far ahead of Lovie Smith. They may be equal, but not better by a far margin.

 

I think John Harbaugh and Mike Smith are way overrated.

[Jenksismyhero]

It's still not a good comparison. "Being a leader" is a minor aspect of playing QB, something to get you from good-to-great but definitely doesn't make up for being terrible at QB.

 

Conversely, "being a leader" is a very important aspect of the HC's job. In-game decisions are also important, and no one is arguing that Lovie is good at those. We're all sort of laughing that your positions keeps requiring you to discount every positive thing about this team under Lovie's tenure and focus specifically on the things he's not good at.

 

He's an above-average coach who generally fields a winning team. He has a coaching philosophy that has worked well for the defense and ST, which is not surprising given his background. His offenses have been less than desirable, but a major factor in that is a GM who doesn't give him decent personnel. He has assembled a great cast of assistant coaches around him who have embraced his approach and get the players to perform. The game-planning for the Bears has improved over his tenure and he rarely comes out of the gate getting out-coached. His second-half adjustments need improvement, but he's not routinely blowing leads in the 4th quarter like other team do--the issue is usually more an inability to adjust and come back than to hang on to a lead. The TO's on this team are frustrating, and he's made some bad clock-management calls in the past. He has one of the worst challenge records, challenging plays that are clearly not going to be overturned and not challenging plays that easily would be. On both of those issues, though, the problem stems from people under Lovie and not Lovie himself. The TO problems this year have come from a bad play relay system for the offense. The challenges are reviewed and advised by people in the booth. Now, he is responsible for reforming and fixing problems, but he's not throwing the red flag based entirely on his own view of the play.

 

You want to call him average? OK. His length of tenure and record speak otherwise, but he's not in the upper echelon of coaches. That's different from what you came in here saying, that he's "average at best," has been "lucky" in all of his successes, and that he has 4 or 5 future HOF players on the roster and is underachieving.

 

I'm not saying it's ALL luck. I'm saying he gets lucky. I'm saying his record doesn't reflect how good his teams are. I remember those stretches early in his tenure when the defense and special teams would outscore the offense. That's not coaching, that's abnormal. Yes, I give him credit for bringing in a turnover/good defense mindset and for the defensive scheme that has clearly worked. But to me that's mostly negated by the bonehead time outs (yes, we can say that's more on Martz and the 12 year old looking qb coach, but after one game of that s*** i'd have everyone in my office getting the problem fixed, not letting it continue for 7-8 weeks into the f'n season), his refusal to make adjustments despite being outplayed (and outcoached) (who remembers that Sunday night game against the Giants last season when he refused to do ANYTHING different or at least tell Martz to try anything different. That is the s*** I cannot stand with him), the challenge issue as you mentioned, etc. I'm considering all of his work and still think he's just average. He's nowhere near "excellent" and to me not "good."

 

Does anyone here truly believe that last year they had any business in the NFC championship game? Seriously. Were they that good? To me (and everyone I know who follows them) they were an average team that lucked into that game. I really don't understand how people can dispute that. People use that as a "oh! 2 NFC championship games, must be a great coach." People were screaming for him and Angelo to be fired after the 2009 season. All that s*** got forgotten real quick once he took an average team to the NFC championship game, which IMO, was a fluke.

 

[Jenksismyhero]

The remarkable thing is of course that 1/2 your list of "Definitenly take them" will be either in your "probably not" or "already was fired" list in about 2 years.

 

You're nuts. Who out of that group is close to being fired? None of them. They'd have to be absolutely wretched the next 2 seasons and I don't see how that's possible.

[StrangeSox]

he took an average team to the NFC championship game

 

That is why it was forgotten.

 

And the Angelo hate surely hasn't faded. I think enough people have come around on Lovie and see him as doing a good job with what he's given.

 

I'm saying his record doesn't reflect how good his teams are. I remember those stretches early in his tenure when the defense and special teams would outscore the offense. That's not coaching, that's abnormal

 

You can look at that from another view, though. Look at who was on this offense in his tenure. Look at what he had at skill positions. A bunch of garbage and Thomas Jone. Woo. That he managed to do so well on the defensive and ST side of things and get those teams into the playoffs is a positive, not a negative.

Edited November 17, 2011 by StrangeSox

[Balta1701]

You're nuts. Who out of that group is close to being fired? None of them. They'd have to be absolutely wretched the next 2 seasons and I don't see how that's possible.

Coughlin has been on a tightrope forever. The 2 Harbaughs and Smith are pretty much right where Wisenhunt was 2 years ago.

[LittleHurt05]

I'm not saying it's ALL luck. I'm saying he gets lucky. I'm saying his record doesn't reflect how good his teams are. I remember those stretches early in his tenure when the defense and special teams would outscore the offense. That's not coaching, that's abnormal. Yes, I give him credit for bringing in a turnover/good defense mindset and for the defensive scheme that has clearly worked. But to me that's mostly negated by the bonehead time outs (yes, we can say that's more on Martz and the 12 year old looking qb coach, but after one game of that s*** i'd have everyone in my office getting the problem fixed, not letting it continue for 7-8 weeks into the f'n season), his refusal to make adjustments despite being outplayed (and outcoached) (who remembers that Sunday night game against the Giants last season when he refused to do ANYTHING different or at least tell Martz to try anything different. That is the s*** I cannot stand with him), the challenge issue as you mentioned, etc. I'm considering all of his work and still think he's just average. He's nowhere near "excellent" and to me not "good."

 

Does anyone here truly believe that last year they had any business in the NFC championship game? Seriously. Were they that good? To me (and everyone I know who follows them) they were an average team that lucked into that game. I really don't understand how people can dispute that. People use that as a "oh! 2 NFC championship games, must be a great coach." People were screaming for him and Angelo to be fired after the 2009 season. All that s*** got forgotten real quick once he took an average team to the NFC championship game, which IMO, was a fluke.

 

Rex Grossman is an abnormal quarterback, they are lucky the offense scored at all.

[StrangeSox]

Rex Grossman is an abnormal quarterback, they are lucky the offense scored at all.

 

Krenzel/Quinn/whoever, Grossman, Orton at QB, an above-average but not special RB and mediocre WR's. Not exactly a recipe for success.

[Jenksismyhero]

Coughlin has been on a tightrope forever. The 2 Harbaughs and Smith are pretty much right where Wisenhunt was 2 years ago.

 

Coughlin has been on a tightrope his entire tenure, and yet he's still there, and will be for the foreseeable future. They contend just about every year and he just won a SB a few seasons ago.

 

How on earth can you say Jim Harbaugh is anywhere close? That's just idiotic. And close to Wisenhunt? I don't know what that means. Are these guys losing hall of fame qb's and the best receiver in the game following an SB appearance for a franchise that was terrible for decades?

 

I'll give you John Harbaugh if he continues to lose games he shouldn't. But he's won a lot of big games against the best teams, including the important teams like NE and Pitt. I don't see that unless, again, they tank for a couple of season. Guess what, if McCarthy or Belichick tank for 2 seasons they'd be on the hot seat too. But that's not very realistic.

[southsider2k5]

Coughlin has been on a tightrope his entire tenure, and yet he's still there, and will be for the foreseeable future. They contend just about every year and he just won a SB a few seasons ago.

 

How on earth can you say Jim Harbaugh is anywhere close? That's just idiotic. And close to Wisenhunt? I don't know what that means. Are these guys losing hall of fame qb's and the best receiver in the game following an SB appearance for a franchise that was terrible for decades?

 

I'll give you John Harbaugh if he continues to lose games he shouldn't. But he's won a lot of big games against the best teams, including the important teams like NE and Pitt. I don't see that unless, again, they tank for a couple of season. Guess what, if McCarthy or Belichick tank for 2 seasons they'd be on the hot seat too. But that's not very realistic.

 

Statistically if you take a block of 10 to 15 coaches, a number of them will be fired in a couple of seasons. It is really inevitable.

[LittleHurt05]

How on earth can you say Jim Harbaugh is anywhere close? That's just idiotic. And close to Wisenhunt? I don't know what that means. Are these guys losing hall of fame qb's and the best receiver in the game following an SB appearance for a franchise that was terrible for decades?

 

How can you call Wisenhunt a good coach? He made the Super Bowl with a HOF QB & the best receiver in the game. He obviously had nothing to do with it, it was all his PLAYERS making plays. They were a 5-seed that had the NFC champ. game at home. Fluke!!!

[StrangeSox]

Where do you judge the player talent level of the Bears relative to those teams?

[GoSox05]

Per Rotoworld.

 

"Suspended Packers DE Johnny Jolly was sentenced Thursday to six years in prison for violating the terms of his probation for possessing drugs and tampering with evidence."

 

 

Sucks cause the dude had some talent. Could of won a Super Bowl and been part of this team right now. Sad story.

[iamshack]

Most people just assume they are 8-1 because of their division and don't realize they have played only 1 division game to date.

 

Going 4-0 when traveling to the east coast is pretty darn good, no matter who the teams they play. And winning in Philly isn't often easy. Winning against NY was another big game. How about going to DET and winning?

 

Both the Bears and the 49ers have each played 4 teams with winning records.

Great posts.

 

The Niners aren't flashy...but they're very solid. They're very 2005 Bears-ish...

[Balta1701]

Great posts.

 

The Niners aren't flashy...but they're very solid. They're very 2005 Bears-ish...

Based on this thread, I conclude that they stink and are very lucky .

[iamshack]

Based on this thread, I conclude that they stink and are very lucky .

The thing about the NFL, at least in my opinion, is that the difference between being very good and being very bad is very little. The slightest of adjustments can make huge differences (just look at the Bears from week to week).

 

The Niners have been building a talented team for the last 3-4 years. Only now are they determining the best way to fit all that talent together.