Official 2011-2012 NFL Thread

[GoodAsGould]

Fisher is a tremendous head coach and is one guy I would be completey on board with hiring over Lovie. Note: There aren't many guys I'd replace Lovie with in the league.

 

I do think if you brought in a GM like the Ravens guy (who is the top candidate in the league) and the Bears loved him and he was in with the exception that he needed to have a shot to bring in his coach, than I'd probably do it.

 

There are probably 5 coaches better than Lovie in this league:

1. Bellicheck

2. Sean Payton

3. McCarthy

4. Tomlin

5. Reid

 

I think anyone else and you can make an argument Lovie is better. The next list, which includes Lovie, also includes Mike Smith, the Harbaugh Brothers, Shanny (I might include him in the top group), and Rex Ryan (who I happen to hate). You could also argue for Kubiak (who I'm a huge fan of). Which means, if you agree with my list, at worse, Lovie is the 11th or 12th best coach in the league. I happen to think he rates on par with everyone else on the list of this group of candidates and most definitely ahead of Rex.

 

 

I don't think Tomlin deserves to be in top5, hell our resident Steelers fan always seems to be b****ing about him. Reid to me is the same as Martz, he gets in his own way too often.... I think given how bad the 49ers were last season you have to Jim Harbaugh in the top5 and I think I'd round it out with John Fox.

 

I don't know what to make of Fisher, It's hard for me to want a guy that insisted on starting Kerry Collins when despite all his problems Vince Young was clearly the better choice imo or even a ton of guys off F/A would have given more production than Collins.

[Chisoxfn]

Not questioning your list, but the top 4 coaches have Brady, Brees, Big Ben, & Rodgers as their QBs. Do the coaches make the QB or the QBs make the coach?

It most certainly helps. That is why I'm very impressed at what Reid has done (he is an exceptional coach in my mind and my personal opinion is that I might take him over everyone but Bellicheck). Lovie to an extent gets some credit for what he has done with a variety of QB's.

 

Also, the more I think about it, the more I could make the argument that Lovie > Fisher. A couple years ago I didn't think I'd say it, but Lovie is truly a good football coach.

[GoSox05]

I don't think Tomlin deserves to be in top5, hell our resident Steelers fan always seems to be b****ing about him. Reid to me is the same as Martz, he gets in his own way too often.... I think given how bad the 49ers were last season you have to Jim Harbaugh in the top5 and I think I'd round it out with John Fox.

 

I don't know what to make of Fisher, It's hard for me to want a guy that insisted on starting Kerry Collins when despite all his problems Vince Young was clearly the better choice imo or even a ton of guys off F/A would have given more production than Collins.

 

Tomlin is 55-25 in the Regular Season. He won coach of the year in 2008. In the last 5 years he has taken his team to the Super Bowl twice. Winning one championship.

 

He's done all of this before the age of 40.

 

If that's not a top 5 coach, I don't know what is.

[Controlled Chaos]

Fisher is a tremendous head coach and is one guy I would be completey on board with hiring over Lovie. Note: There aren't many guys I'd replace Lovie with in the league.

 

I do think if you brought in a GM like the Ravens guy (who is the top candidate in the league) and the Bears loved him and he was in with the exception that he needed to have a shot to bring in his coach, than I'd probably do it.

 

There are probably 5 coaches better than Lovie in this league:

1. Bellicheck

2. Sean Payton

3. McCarthy

4. Tomlin

5. Reid

 

I think anyone else and you can make an argument Lovie is better. The next list, which includes Lovie, also includes Mike Smith, the Harbaugh Brothers, Shanny (I might include him in the top group), and Rex Ryan (who I happen to hate). You could also argue for Kubiak (who I'm a huge fan of). Which means, if you agree with my list, at worse, Lovie is the 11th or 12th best coach in the league. I happen to think he rates on par with everyone else on the list of this group of candidates and most definitely ahead of Rex.

Please tell me what you see in Lovie. Here's my thoughts : http://www.talkbears.com/forums/index.php?...ost&p=99599

[GoodAsGould]

Tomlin is 55-25 in the Regular Season. He won coach of the year in 2008. In the last 5 years he has taken his team to the Super Bowl twice. Winning one championship.

 

He's done all of this before the age of 40.

 

If that's not a top 5 coach, I don't know what is.

 

He also inherited a team coming off winning a Superbowl. He walked into a perfect coaching job pretty much, he is a defensive minded coach but the team doesn't even run his defense. I guess he is good at staying out of his coordinators way and not making any Ron Zook like in game decisions.

[MurcieOne]

I think anyone else and you can make an argument Lovie is better. The next list, which includes Lovie, also includes Mike Smith, the Harbaugh Brothers, Shanny (I might include him in the top group), and Rex Ryan (who I happen to hate). You could also argue for Kubiak (who I'm a huge fan of). Which means, if you agree with my list, at worse, Lovie is the 11th or 12th best coach in the league. I happen to think he rates on par with everyone else on the list of this group of candidates and most definitely ahead of Rex.

 

I'd include Jim Schwartz, John Fox, Marvin Lewis, and Tom Coughlin among the list of current head coaches that I think are better than Lovie Smith.

 

I don't think Lovie is a horrible coach, but I have yet to be convinced as to why he is a good one or worth keeping around. I am willing to entertain all opinions on the subject and would actually like to be convinced otherwise.

 

Here are my main problems with Lovie:

 

1) Poor in-game management. (Bad time outs, bad challenges, poor communication)

 

2) What does he do?

 

Rod is the DC, Martz was the OC, Toub is the STC, so what does Lovie do? I assume he inspires his team, game plans during the week, and puts his two cents on everything his assistants do . . . but I would like a head coach that actually calls plays and runs his team during games. In Lovie's 1 season calling plays, the defense performed at its worst during his tenure (granted Urlacher missed the whole year).

 

3) Bad staff decisions.

 

After the Bears best defensive season since 1986, Lovie fired Ron Rivera and replaced him with his friend, Bob Babich. That was a bad decision made to assert his Alpha-dog status and it backfired. Lovie's OC's: Terry Shea (lol), Ron Turner (lol), Martz (lol). If Lovie leaves the offensive side of the team to his OC, he had better pick a good one. Shea, Turner and Martz have all been failures.

 

Moreover, Lovie and his self-picked-staff has done a poor job of developing players. Of course, Angelo had been the one acquiring the talent, but Lovie has input on what players are drafted and how they develop. I still think he shares (somewhat) in the blame for some of our recent draft-pick failures. The staff has failed to develop any stand-out, pro-bowl caliber players at the following positions: QB, LT, RT, RG, C, LG, WR, S. We've also had significant trouble developing DT's after Harris' injury, DE has been an issue, and we've developed no CBs since Vasher lost his skills (sorry Zach Bowman). Additionally, his decision to move Devin Hester to starting WR seemingly diminished Hester's return skills (which seemed to return this season after he saw less snaps on offense) and didn't work out because Devin Hester is not a good WR.

 

4) Stubbornness and Absurdity

 

"Devin Hester is a No. 1 receiver in this league." "Kellen Davis is one of the best tight ends in football." Does he really believe these types of things? If so, when does he

 

 

Just my thoughts. Can't argue with his record, but you can argue it should have been better.

 

[LittleHurt05]

I think it's a bit of both.

 

I'd say a good coach definitely helps those top QBs excel, so the coaches deserve credit. But if Sean Payton had Kyle Orton or Rex Grossman in New Orleans this whole time instead of Brees, how successful would he have been? Would he still have a job? The Patriots didn't skip a beat with Cassel (missed playoffs but were 11-5), but Belichick was easily under .500 in Cleveland as a head coach.

[LittleHurt05]

It most certainly helps. That is why I'm very impressed at what Reid has done (he is an exceptional coach in my mind and my personal opinion is that I might take him over everyone but Bellicheck). Lovie to an extent gets some credit for what he has done with a variety of QB's.

 

Also, the more I think about it, the more I could make the argument that Lovie > Fisher. A couple years ago I didn't think I'd say it, but Lovie is truly a good football coach.

 

I definitely agree about Reid. No one ever considers McNabb a great QB, yet Reid took those teams to like 5 NFC title games and a Super Bowl.

[iamshack]

I'd include Jim Schwartz, John Fox, Marvin Lewis, and Tom Coughlin among the list of current head coaches that I think are better than Lovie Smith.

 

I don't think Lovie is a horrible coach, but I have yet to be convinced as to why he is a good one or worth keeping around. I am willing to entertain all opinions on the subject and would actually like to be convinced otherwise.

 

Here are my main problems with Lovie:

 

1) Poor in-game management. (Bad time outs, bad challenges, poor communication)

 

2) What does he do?

 

Rod is the DC, Martz was the OC, Toub is the STC, so what does Lovie do? I assume he inspires his team, game plans during the week, and puts his two cents on everything his assistants do . . . but I would like a head coach that actually calls plays and runs his team during games. In Lovie's 1 season calling plays, the defense performed at its worst during his tenure (granted Urlacher missed the whole year).

 

3) Bad staff decisions.

 

After the Bears best defensive season since 1986, Lovie fired Ron Rivera and replaced him with his friend, Bob Babich. That was a bad decision made to assert his Alpha-dog status and it backfired. Lovie's OC's: Terry Shea (lol), Ron Turner (lol), Martz (lol). If Lovie leaves the offensive side of the team to his OC, he had better pick a good one. Shea, Turner and Martz have all been failures.

 

Moreover, Lovie and his self-picked-staff has done a poor job of developing players. Of course, Angelo had been the one acquiring the talent, but Lovie has input on what players are drafted and how they develop. I still think he shares (somewhat) in the blame for some of our recent draft-pick failures. The staff has failed to develop any stand-out, pro-bowl caliber players at the following positions: QB, LT, RT, RG, C, LG, WR, S. We've also had significant trouble developing DT's after Harris' injury, DE has been an issue, and we've developed no CBs since Vasher lost his skills (sorry Zach Bowman). Additionally, his decision to move Devin Hester to starting WR seemingly diminished Hester's return skills (which seemed to return this season after he saw less snaps on offense) and didn't work out because Devin Hester is not a good WR.

 

4) Stubbornness and Absurdity

 

"Devin Hester is a No. 1 receiver in this league." "Kellen Davis is one of the best tight ends in football." Does he really believe these types of things? If so, when does he

 

 

Just my thoughts. Can't argue with his record, but you can argue it should have been better.

I'm sorry, but given what little we know about the hierarchy of the Bears coaching staff, other than their titles, the record is by far the most important thing, which you admit one cannot take issue with.

 

He's been here for what, 8 years now? Anyone is going to have a list of errors that took place over the course of 8 years.

 

Jim Schwartz? MARVIN LEWIS? John Fox is like Lovie's white twin brother! What are you talking about?

[GoSox05]

I'd say a good coach definitely helps those top QBs excel, so the coaches deserve credit. But if Sean Payton had Kyle Orton or Rex Grossman in New Orleans this whole time instead of Brees, how successful would he have been? Would he still have a job? The Patriots didn't skip a beat with Cassel (missed playoffs but were 11-5), but Belichick was easily under .500 in Cleveland as a head coach.

 

You have to look at in the other way too. Drew Brees wasn't exactly tearing it up in San Diego. Mike McCarthy had a big hand in shaping Rodgers. They had to change some of the stuff he did in college. Like holding the ball up high.

 

Look at someone like Matt Flynn. He was a 7th round draft pick. A QB who in college wasn't known for throwing.

 

He will probably starting for someone next year. Does that happen if Cleveland had drafted him?

[iamshack]

You have to look at in the other way too. Drew Brees wasn't exactly tearing it up in San Diego. Mike McCarthy had a big hand in shaping Rodgers. They had to change some of the stuff he did in college. Like holding the ball up high.

 

Look at someone like Matt Flynn. He was a 7th round draft pick. A QB who in college wasn't known for throwing.

 

He will probably starting for someone next year. Does that happen if Cleveland had drafted him?

Drew Brees played pretty well in San Diego in 2004 and 2005....it was pretty clear he was going to be an outstanding qb...and then the injury happened...

[GoSox05]

Drew Brees played pretty well in San Diego in 2004 and 2005....it was pretty clear he was going to be an outstanding qb...and then the injury happened...

 

He was good in SD, but not like he is now.

 

His last year in SD he had 9 more touchdowns than INT. This past year he had 32.

[cabiness42]

In the past 8 seasons, the Bears have won 55% of their games, three division titles, and one conference title, all while having a terrible GM and subpar coaches. They did it all with players who were overvalued in the draft, yet magically taught themselves to become outstanding players.

[Chisoxfn]

I don't think Tomlin deserves to be in top5, hell our resident Steelers fan always seems to be b****ing about him. Reid to me is the same as Martz, he gets in his own way too often.... I think given how bad the 49ers were last season you have to Jim Harbaugh in the top5 and I think I'd round it out with John Fox.

 

I don't know what to make of Fisher, It's hard for me to want a guy that insisted on starting Kerry Collins when despite all his problems Vince Young was clearly the better choice imo or even a ton of guys off F/A would have given more production than Collins.

I'm not about to put guys in the top 5 based upon one year. John Fox is a solid coach but he also stunk his last couple seasons in Carolina. In regards to Reid, the dude has developed QB's consistently. McNabb played at a probowl level his entire career under Reid, the minute he leaves, he's a total bum. Kolb kicks butt in short stints and goes to Arizona and stinks. Vick passes like he's never passed before. Reid has done nothing but do a great job with his offenses.

 

He's egotistical and cocky but he's a hell of a coach with a great track record. He unfortunately struggled this year and some people might be down on him for that, but the team came on very strong and its problems were on the defensive side (albeit the oline struggled too). And defensively, throughout most of his career, they have been solid (under the late Jim Johnson).

 

harbaugh could get into the list but no way am I putting him there after just one season.

[Chisoxfn]

I'm sorry, but given what little we know about the hierarchy of the Bears coaching staff, other than their titles, the record is by far the most important thing, which you admit one cannot take issue with.

 

He's been here for what, 8 years now? Anyone is going to have a list of errors that took place over the course of 8 years.

 

Jim Schwartz? MARVIN LEWIS? John Fox is like Lovie's white twin brother! What are you talking about?

Marvin Lewis had all of the talent in the world on some of those Bengals teams. He's the epitome of a mediocre coach who doesn't have near the accolades of a Lovie Smith. Jim Schwartz. Talk to me when he does something consistently over a period of time. All I see is a guy who is out of control and can't keep his players in check.

 

Fox is a damn good coach. I probably should have included him in my top 11 or 12, but he did have his problems in Carolina so he isn't perfect (he had crap at QB too). But Fox is very similar to Lovie as shack has pointed out.

 

Records are important and Lovie has not only a good record but he also has a great track record of having his teams ready to play week in and week out. That is the head coaches job. The head coaches job isn't always to make the play-calls, etc. Hell, there are plenty of people that make exceptional coordinators and terrible coaches and vice versa. Not all head coaches would make excellent (or even be the best) coordinators.

 

It is a different skill-set and I think in the most important areas, Lovie does better than most. When it comes to in-game management, every coach f's it up and Lovie has improved over the years at it. His teams have made better adjustments and he has a hell of a good record when his teams are leading late and into the 2nd half. I just find it funny that most Bear fans (and I'm not putting you into this category Mark (Murcie)) hate Lovie because he doesn't yell on the sidelines or gives "coach speak" during press conferences.

 

In regards to Rivera, he made a mistake and paid for it, but he isn't perfect. He did the same thing with Shea (and almost everybody lauded that decision at the time) and with Martz, he got burned (and It was a hire made against Angelo's wish). Lovie is at his best when he runs the show and he's a very good leader of the team and quite frankly, that is the head coaches job. He seems to have thinks turned in the right direction and I have full faith in him as the head coach (I am sincere when I say that two or three years ago, I wouldn't have said that, but I have really grown to admire him as a head coach).

 

Hell, look at Steeler fans, they were ready for years to run Cowher out of town yet he's probably one of the best coaches of the past 30 years.

[Brian]

In the past 8 seasons, the Bears have won 55% of their games, three division titles, and one conference title, all while having a terrible GM and subpar coaches. They did it all with players who were overvalued in the draft, yet magically taught themselves to become outstanding players.

 

Makes no sense. Not a high bar but Lovie is easily the best coach we have had since Ditka and the only guy I would think of replacing him with is Cowher. Do people forget Wanny and Jauron? Each coach had like 1 good season and nothing else. Lovie consistently has this team competing. He makes in game decisions that make you shake your head like EVERY coach.

 

Lovie has had 3 seasons under .500 and two of them were at 7-9.

[MurcieOne]

Marvin Lewis had all of the talent in the world on some of those Bengals teams.

 

Mike Brown is the Bengals GM. Thus, I whole heartedly disagree with your statement. You also list Jim Harbaugh as one of your top 10ish coaches but then go on to discredit Jim Schwartz for not having a track record of prolonged success. Schwartz inherited a team coming off an 0-16 season and a roster devoid of talent at most positions. Three years later, they won 10 games, made the playoffs for the first time in 12 seasons and had their QB throw for over 5,000 yards. Granted, the guy seems like a douche and his players act foolish, but I don't think you can argue that his resume is impressive thus far. I'd say it's even more impressive than Jim Harbaugh's at the moment, given the fact that Harbaugh inherited an impressive amount of established talent on the defensive side of the ball.

 

I do appreciate that you did not group me with the "I hate Lovie because he doesn't yell on the sidelines" bunch. I could care less about Lovie's demeanor, as long as he coaches the team effectively.

 

Let me reiterate, I don't hate Lovie. I think he's a good manager of men, both staff and player alike. I just question his individual ability to evaluate and develop personnel/staff and compete with other head coaches when it comes to developing schemes. I haven't seen that from him. No, I do not have intimate knowledge how the Bears coaching staff operates. I am just basing my opinions from what I read, watch, listen and learn from the media.

[iamshack]

Marvin Lewis had all of the talent in the world on some of those Bengals teams. He's the epitome of a mediocre coach who doesn't have near the accolades of a Lovie Smith. Jim Schwartz. Talk to me when he does something consistently over a period of time. All I see is a guy who is out of control and can't keep his players in check.

 

Fox is a damn good coach. I probably should have included him in my top 11 or 12, but he did have his problems in Carolina so he isn't perfect (he had crap at QB too). But Fox is very similar to Lovie as shack has pointed out.

 

Records are important and Lovie has not only a good record but he also has a great track record of having his teams ready to play week in and week out. That is the head coaches job. The head coaches job isn't always to make the play-calls, etc. Hell, there are plenty of people that make exceptional coordinators and terrible coaches and vice versa. Not all head coaches would make excellent (or even be the best) coordinators.

 

It is a different skill-set and I think in the most important areas, Lovie does better than most. When it comes to in-game management, every coach f's it up and Lovie has improved over the years at it. His teams have made better adjustments and he has a hell of a good record when his teams are leading late and into the 2nd half. I just find it funny that most Bear fans (and I'm not putting you into this category Mark (Murcie)) hate Lovie because he doesn't yell on the sidelines or gives "coach speak" during press conferences.

 

In regards to Rivera, he made a mistake and paid for it, but he isn't perfect. He did the same thing with Shea (and almost everybody lauded that decision at the time) and with Martz, he got burned (and It was a hire made against Angelo's wish). Lovie is at his best when he runs the show and he's a very good leader of the team and quite frankly, that is the head coaches job. He seems to have thinks turned in the right direction and I have full faith in him as the head coach (I am sincere when I say that two or three years ago, I wouldn't have said that, but I have really grown to admire him as a head coach).

 

Hell, look at Steeler fans, they were ready for years to run Cowher out of town yet he's probably one of the best coaches of the past 30 years.

+1

[iamshack]

Mike Brown is the Bengals GM. Thus, I whole heartedly disagree with your statement. You also list Jim Harbaugh as one of your top 10ish coaches but then go on to discredit Jim Schwartz for not having a track record of prolonged success. Schwartz inherited a team coming off an 0-16 season and a roster devoid of talent at most positions. Three years later, they won 10 games, made the playoffs for the first time in 12 seasons and had their QB throw for over 5,000 yards. Granted, the guy seems like a douche and his players act foolish, but I don't think you can argue that his resume is impressive thus far. I'd say it's even more impressive than Jim Harbaugh's at the moment, given the fact that Harbaugh inherited an impressive amount of established talent on the defensive side of the ball.

 

I do appreciate that you did not group me with the "I hate Lovie because he doesn't yell on the sidelines" bunch. I could care less about Lovie's demeanor, as long as he coaches the team effectively.

 

Let me reiterate, I don't hate Lovie. I think he's a good manager of men, both staff and player alike. I just question his individual ability to evaluate and develop personnel/staff and compete with other head coaches when it comes to developing schemes. I haven't seen that from him. No, I do not have intimate knowledge how the Bears coaching staff operates. I am just basing my opinions from what I read, watch, listen and learn from the media.

First of all, you discredit Harbaugh and then go on to credit Schwartz for doing basically the exact same thing as Harbaugh has done at Stanford and now San Francisco.

 

Secondly, most of what you credit Schwartz for seems to me to be things the GM that replaced Matt Millen should get credit for. Everything you expect from a head coach, whether it be preparing the team to play, instilling discipline and sportsmanship in his players, keeping his teams from committing costly penalties, etc., the Lions, and Jim Schwartz by clear and direct extension, fail at. The Lions are an undisciplined, disrespectful, idiotic but incredibly talented team. Seems to me it is Schwartz's job to harness that talent and produce success. They started out 5-1 (but were lucky to have that record since they came out unprepared against Minnesota and Dallas), and finished weakly at 10-6, and made the playoffs only because Jay Cutler injured his wrist and the Bears collapsed.

[Chisoxfn]

First of all, you discredit Harbaugh and then go on to credit Schwartz for doing basically the exact same thing as Harbaugh has done at Stanford and now San Francisco.

 

Secondly, most of what you credit Schwartz for seems to me to be things the GM that replaced Matt Millen should get credit for. Everything you expect from a head coach, whether it be preparing the team to play, instilling discipline and sportsmanship in his players, keeping his teams from committing costly penalties, etc., the Lions, and Jim Schwartz by clear and direct extension, fail at. The Lions are an undisciplined, disrespectful, idiotic but incredibly talented team. Seems to me it is Schwartz's job to harness that talent and produce success. They started out 5-1 (but were lucky to have that record since they came out unprepared against Minnesota and Dallas), and finished weakly at 10-6, and made the playoffs only because Jay Cutler injured his wrist and the Bears collapsed.

All excellent points. The Lions are an incredibly talented squad and I'll have Schwartz major credit for changing the attitude there as the coach but I want to see what he does because that team is completely undisciplined and it cost them significantly this year. Harbaugh gets more points for me, similar to Shack, for the fact that he showed how he could take a previously non-existent college football team and help make them sucessful.

[MexSoxFan#1]

Fisher is a tremendous head coach and is one guy I would be completey on board with hiring over Lovie. Note: There aren't many guys I'd replace Lovie with in the league.

 

I do think if you brought in a GM like the Ravens guy (who is the top candidate in the league) and the Bears loved him and he was in with the exception that he needed to have a shot to bring in his coach, than I'd probably do it.

 

There are probably 5 coaches better than Lovie in this league:

1. Bellicheck

2. Sean Payton

3. McCarthy

4. Tomlin

5. Reid

 

I think anyone else and you can make an argument Lovie is better. The next list, which includes Lovie, also includes Mike Smith, the Harbaugh Brothers, Shanny (I might include him in the top group), and Rex Ryan (who I happen to hate). You could also argue for Kubiak (who I'm a huge fan of). Which means, if you agree with my list, at worse, Lovie is the 11th or 12th best coach in the league. I happen to think he rates on par with everyone else on the list of this group of candidates and most definitely ahead of Rex.

 

Fisher is .542 while Lovie is .555, one SB (loss) in more seasons than Lovie and had McNai and Eddie George while Lovie had Grossman and other scrubs.

Edited January 5, 2012 by MexSoxFan#1

[MexSoxFan#1]

*McNair

 

Damn Android phone!!

Edited January 5, 2012 by MexSoxFan#1

[iamshack]

All excellent points. The Lions are an incredibly talented squad and I'll have Schwartz major credit for changing the attitude there as the coach but I want to see what he does because that team is completely undisciplined and it cost them significantly this year. Harbaugh gets more points for me, similar to Shack, for the fact that he showed how he could take a previously non-existent college football team and help make them sucessful.

That being said...I really do love Detroit +10.5 this weekend

[MexSoxFan#1]

I got Texans, Saints, Giants and Steelers.

[cabiness42]

Makes no sense. Not a high bar but Lovie is easily the best coach we have had since Ditka and the only guy I would think of replacing him with is Cowher. Do people forget Wanny and Jauron? Each coach had like 1 good season and nothing else. Lovie consistently has this team competing. He makes in game decisions that make you shake your head like EVERY coach.

 

Lovie has had 3 seasons under .500 and two of them were at 7-9.

 

I'm sorry, I thought that quote was so obviously over the top that I didn't need to make it green.