southsider2k5 Posted February 12, 2012 Author Share Posted February 12, 2012 QUOTE (Balta1701 @ Feb 11, 2012 -> 10:05 PM) Whatever KW says...he might get a callup, but neither of those guys are ready to play a role in a team even remotely close to contention. IF they're up and playing any sort of role, then that means the team isn't contending, they're retooling. Who is saying the Sox are ready for contention? I sure haven't seen it. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Marty34 Posted February 12, 2012 Share Posted February 12, 2012 QUOTE (southsider2k5 @ Feb 12, 2012 -> 08:56 AM) Who is saying the Sox are ready for contention? I sure haven't seen it. If you thought they were contenders 2011, they're really not any worse off now. More than likely better as guys like Dunn and Rios will be better and Peavy is coming off a healthy winter after being a year plus removed from surgery. The Sox should be within 5 games of the division lead come Sept. 1st. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Balta1701 Posted February 12, 2012 Share Posted February 12, 2012 QUOTE (southsider2k5 @ Feb 12, 2012 -> 09:56 AM) Who is saying the Sox are ready for contention? I sure haven't seen it. Yeah, Marty's trying to find a way to argue that KW's job is on the line this season, which pretty much requires he argue that the team will be in contention. And Molina and Stewart belong no where near a team 5 games out of the divison. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dick Allen Posted February 12, 2012 Share Posted February 12, 2012 QUOTE (Balta1701 @ Feb 12, 2012 -> 12:22 PM) Yeah, Marty's trying to find a way to argue that KW's job is on the line this season, which pretty much requires he argue that the team will be in contention. And Molina and Stewart belong no where near a team 5 games out of the divison. I'm pretty sure KW even gave himself at least 2 seasons to turn around the ship before he asks JR if he still wants him to be the GM. So you're correct the Sox could lose 100 games KW is going nowhere. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Marty34 Posted February 12, 2012 Share Posted February 12, 2012 QUOTE (Balta1701 @ Feb 12, 2012 -> 12:22 PM) Yeah, Marty's trying to find a way to argue that KW's job is on the line this season, which pretty much requires he argue that the team will be in contention. And Molina and Stewart belong no where near a team 5 games out of the divison. You don't keep Danks and Floyd in a rebuild. If Danks and Sale are the pitchers the White Sox think they are, that's as good a rotation as there is in the division. Williams said at Soxfest, if the Sox hit they will contend. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Marty34 Posted February 12, 2012 Share Posted February 12, 2012 QUOTE (Dick Allen @ Feb 12, 2012 -> 12:40 PM) I'm pretty sure KW even gave himself at least 2 seasons to turn around the ship before he asks JR if he still wants him to be the GM. So you're correct the Sox could lose 100 games KW is going nowhere. The fan base will not put up with another season like last year. Chairman Reinsdorf would definitely make a change under these circumstances. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jamesdiego Posted February 12, 2012 Share Posted February 12, 2012 QUOTE (Marty34 @ Feb 12, 2012 -> 12:47 PM) You don't keep Danks and Floyd in a rebuild. If Danks and Sale are the pitchers the White Sox think they are, that's as good a rotation as there is in the division. Williams said at Soxfest, if the Sox hit they will contend. QUOTE (Marty34 @ Feb 12, 2012 -> 12:51 PM) The fan base will not put up with another season like last year. Chairman Reinsdorf would definitely make a change under these circumstances. Are you kidding? Kenny was paying lip service at Sox Fest no less. What else is he suppose to really say? Everything would have to go just about perfect for us to have a shot. He isn't going anywhere after this season no matter the outcome. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Marty34 Posted February 12, 2012 Share Posted February 12, 2012 QUOTE (jamesdiego @ Feb 12, 2012 -> 01:10 PM) Are you kidding? Kenny was paying lip service at Sox Fest no less. What else is he suppose to really say? Everything would have to go just about perfect for us to have a shot. He isn't going anywhere after this season no matter the outcome. Chairman Reinsdorf got rid of Jerry Krause when everyone said there is no way he'd do it. If this team is as bad as it was last year, Williams will be gone. The fan base is restless enough with this outfit. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Balta1701 Posted February 12, 2012 Share Posted February 12, 2012 QUOTE (Marty34 @ Feb 12, 2012 -> 02:19 PM) Chairman Reinsdorf got rid of Jerry Krause when everyone said there is no way he'd do it. If this team is as bad as it was last year, Williams will be gone. The fan base is restless enough with this outfit. Nope. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
greg775 Posted February 12, 2012 Share Posted February 12, 2012 QUOTE (Marty34 @ Feb 12, 2012 -> 03:50 PM) If you thought they were contenders 2011, they're really not any worse off now. More than likely better as guys like Dunn and Rios will be better and Peavy is coming off a healthy winter after being a year plus removed from surgery. The Sox should be within 5 games of the division lead come Sept. 1st. I don't know about being within five games of the division, but I do think the front office thinks it's a contending team. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Marty34 Posted February 12, 2012 Share Posted February 12, 2012 It's reasonable to think that the replacements will be as good if not better than Buehrle, Santos, Pierre, and Quentin. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
greg775 Posted February 12, 2012 Share Posted February 12, 2012 QUOTE (Marty34 @ Feb 12, 2012 -> 09:03 PM) It's reasonable to think that the replacements will be as good if not better than Buehrle, Santos, Pierre, and Quentin. I agree. I know we are relying on six youngsters like somebody posted earlier, but I think your take is correct, Marty. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ScottyDo Posted February 12, 2012 Share Posted February 12, 2012 QUOTE (Marty34 @ Feb 12, 2012 -> 04:03 PM) It's reasonable to think that the replacements will be as good if not better than Buehrle, Santos, Pierre, and Quentin. Just how big of an aberration do you think last season was? Even with a marginal increase in production at all of those positions (which is FAR from a guarantee, particularly when you consider that Sale will wisely be forbidden from giving us 200+ innings), are we better than the Tigers? In the end, we weren't that close to them last year...especially not close enough for Sale, Thornton, De Aza and Viciedo to pick up the slack. Your contention is that we all predicted the Sox to contend last year, and the team is relatively similar to last year's, so we should be competitive this year. My (and most everyone else's) contention is that we were WRONG about last year -- very wrong -- and should adjust our expectations accordingly. In order to hold your position on things, you must think that last year's discrepancy between expectations and reality was all fluke, no substance. I'm only willing to admit to partial flukiness, and certainly not enough of it that we've filled in the gap between us and the Tigers. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ScottyDo Posted February 12, 2012 Share Posted February 12, 2012 I also don't understand how you rectify "Kenny be damned for Rios, Peavy and Dunn!" with "Rios, Peavy and Dunn had fluky seasons last year!" Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Marty34 Posted February 12, 2012 Share Posted February 12, 2012 QUOTE (ScottyDo @ Feb 12, 2012 -> 02:18 PM) I also don't understand how you rectify "Kenny be damned for Rios, Peavy and Dunn!" with "Rios, Peavy and Dunn had fluky seasons last year!" I desperately want to be wrong on damning Kenny for those three and if I am I believe the White Sox will contend. If the Sox didn't think they could contend without Buehrle, Santos, and Quentin, they wouldn't have signed Danks, kept Floyd, Ramirez, or Thornton. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Marty34 Posted February 12, 2012 Share Posted February 12, 2012 QUOTE (ScottyDo @ Feb 12, 2012 -> 02:15 PM) Just how big of an aberration do you think last season was? Even with a marginal increase in production at all of those positions (which is FAR from a guarantee, particularly when you consider that Sale will wisely be forbidden from giving us 200+ innings), are we better than the Tigers? In the end, we weren't that close to them last year...especially not close enough for Sale, Thornton, De Aza and Viciedo to pick up the slack. Your contention is that we all predicted the Sox to contend last year, and the team is relatively similar to last year's, so we should be competitive this year. My (and most everyone else's) contention is that we were WRONG about last year -- very wrong -- and should adjust our expectations accordingly. In order to hold your position on things, you must think that last year's discrepancy between expectations and reality was all fluke, no substance. I'm only willing to admit to partial flukiness, and certainly not enough of it that we've filled in the gap between us and the Tigers. If Dunn, Rios, and Peavy are as bad as they were last year then there is a talent evaluation problem in the White Sox front office that will be addressed. You can put Danks in that mix now as a guy who the Sox are counting on Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Balta1701 Posted February 12, 2012 Share Posted February 12, 2012 QUOTE (Marty34 @ Feb 12, 2012 -> 03:29 PM) I desperately want to be wrong on damning Kenny for those three and if I am I believe the White Sox will contend. If the Sox didn't think they could contend without Buehrle, Santos, and Quentin, they wouldn't have signed Danks, kept Floyd, Ramirez, or Thornton. You're neglecting one other option...that teams just weren't offering solid deals for any of those guys. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Marty34 Posted February 12, 2012 Share Posted February 12, 2012 QUOTE (Balta1701 @ Feb 12, 2012 -> 02:44 PM) You're neglecting one other option...that teams just weren't offering solid deals for any of those guys. Again, that points to talent evaluation. If they are good enough to keep the Sox must believe they are good enough to contend with. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Balta1701 Posted February 12, 2012 Share Posted February 12, 2012 QUOTE (Marty34 @ Feb 12, 2012 -> 03:49 PM) Again, that points to talent evaluation. If they are good enough to keep the Sox must believe they are good enough to contend with. Or that those players will be able to net higher returns at some point in the future, either through draft-pick compensation or deadline moves. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Marty34 Posted February 12, 2012 Share Posted February 12, 2012 QUOTE (Balta1701 @ Feb 12, 2012 -> 02:50 PM) Or that those players will be able to net higher returns at some point in the future, either through draft-pick compensation or deadline moves. If they are performing well enough at the trade deadline that they command a higher price at the deadline, I believe the White Sox are either contending or Dunn, Peavy, and Rios are still bad. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Balta1701 Posted February 12, 2012 Share Posted February 12, 2012 QUOTE (Marty34 @ Feb 12, 2012 -> 03:59 PM) If they are performing well enough at the trade deadline that they command a higher price at the deadline, I believe the White Sox are either contending or Dunn, Peavy, and Rios are still bad. Not necessarily, because guys like Beckham, Viciedo, Humber, the whole bullpen could be struggling. Or Konerko and AJ could be showing their age. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Marty34 Posted February 12, 2012 Share Posted February 12, 2012 QUOTE (Balta1701 @ Feb 12, 2012 -> 03:01 PM) Not necessarily, because guys like Beckham, Viciedo, Humber, the whole bullpen could be struggling. Or Konerko and AJ could be showing their age. Perhaps, but if Beckham and Viciedo are struggling it still goes back to talent evaluation. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Balta1701 Posted February 12, 2012 Share Posted February 12, 2012 QUOTE (Marty34 @ Feb 12, 2012 -> 04:04 PM) Perhaps, but if Beckham and Viciedo are struggling it still goes back to talent evaluation. That's the thing...you're 100% wrong here...especially with Viciedo. Dayan Viciedo is going to be a 23 year old this season. He is supposed to struggle if he hits the big leagues at 23. Rookies take time to develop, especially when they hit the big leagues early. The talent could be entirely there and still take a while. Same applies to Reed in the bullpen, and even more so Sale in the rotation, who has to get back up to 100+ innings after having his last season gambled on trying to save the job of the manager who had quit years beforehand. Ditto Morel while I'm at it. That's what you get when you plug in youth; taking a few years to adapt is the norm, not the exception. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Marty34 Posted February 12, 2012 Share Posted February 12, 2012 QUOTE (Balta1701 @ Feb 12, 2012 -> 03:08 PM) That's the thing...you're 100% wrong here...especially with Viciedo. Dayan Viciedo is going to be a 23 year old this season. He is supposed to struggle if he hits the big leagues at 23. Rookies take time to develop, especially when they hit the big leagues early. The talent could be entirely there and still take a while. Same applies to Reed in the bullpen, and even more so Sale in the rotation, who has to get back up to 100+ innings after having his last season gambled on trying to save the job of the manager who had quit years beforehand. Ditto Morel while I'm at it. That's what you get when you plug in youth; taking a few years to adapt is the norm, not the exception. The White Sox believe they are ready or they would have gone through a complete tear down. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Balta1701 Posted February 12, 2012 Share Posted February 12, 2012 QUOTE (Marty34 @ Feb 12, 2012 -> 04:15 PM) The White Sox believe they are ready or they would have gone through a complete tear down. When have the White Sox ever done that? Why would the White Sox do that and genuinely sacrifice their ticket sale position by putting a team out even weaker than this one? It's only a good baseball decision if teams are offering up a lot of talent for the guys the Sox have (they aren't, because too many teams are overvaluaing youth right now), and it's only a good business decision if the Sox can't afford their current roster, which clearly they now can. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Recommended Posts
Join the conversation
You can post now and register later. If you have an account, sign in now to post with your account.