southsider2k5 Posted February 8, 2012 Author Share Posted February 8, 2012 QUOTE (Dick Allen @ Feb 8, 2012 -> 09:35 AM) He didn't offer to resign. He offered to become a seven figure a year scout. He still offered to leave his position. The rest is you speculating on his contract, which you have no idea about. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dick Allen Posted February 8, 2012 Share Posted February 8, 2012 (edited) QUOTE (southsider2k5 @ Feb 8, 2012 -> 09:38 AM) He still offered to leave his position. The rest is you speculating on his contract, which you have no idea about. When you offer someone based on the reasonable assumption they will not accept the offer, its not really an offer. Now, if KW resigned and JR talked him into staying on, that would be different. In other words, KW's offer was............phony. Edited February 8, 2012 by Dick Allen Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
oldsox Posted February 8, 2012 Share Posted February 8, 2012 QUOTE (southsider2k5 @ Feb 7, 2012 -> 02:21 PM) The irony is that is coming from someone named "Oldsox". Apparently not old enough to remember decades like the 60's/70's/80's or 90's, where we made two total playoff appearances and had zero world series appearances. I was there, buddy. My earliest Sox memories are in late 40's. Also familiar with Sox history well before that. Still, our GM has waaay too many bad acquisitions/trades on his resume', one of which is the Peavy deal, which is who this thread is about. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Balta1701 Posted February 8, 2012 Share Posted February 8, 2012 QUOTE (Dick Allen @ Feb 8, 2012 -> 11:10 AM) When you offer someone based on the reasonable assumption they will not accept the offer, its not really an offer. Now, if KW resigned and JR talked him into staying on, that would be different. In other words, KW's offer was............phony. Based on what evidence are you judging that was a phony offer? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
NorthSideSox72 Posted February 8, 2012 Share Posted February 8, 2012 QUOTE (oldsox @ Feb 8, 2012 -> 10:17 AM) I was there, buddy. My earliest Sox memories are in late 40's. Also familiar with Sox history well before that. Still, our GM has waaay too many bad acquisitions/trades on his resume', one of which is the Peavy deal, which is who this thread is about. I don't think anyone would disagree that the past 3 seasons have been disappointments, and that at least part of the blame falls on KW. Nor would anyone disagree that KW has made some bad deals - the Hudson trade and the Rios acquisition being (IMO) front and center. The Peavy deal, while certainly KW's doing, I don't get angry at him about because what happened wasn't predictable. Same with Dunn. KW should have been allowed to step down when he offered. He's had some bad years. And I'm guessing that 2012-2013 will dictate his fate. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dick Allen Posted February 8, 2012 Share Posted February 8, 2012 QUOTE (Balta1701 @ Feb 8, 2012 -> 10:22 AM) Based on what evidence are you judging that was a phony offer? JR doesn't let anyone just walk away from their jobs unless they really want to. He hated Larry Himes but didn't get rid of him until his contract was up, and KWs offer was if JR wanted him to walk. If he did, he would have already told him, not have KW make an offer. Isn't it peculiar that KW made this public? Especially considering how he's been pretty much avoiding the media as much as possible? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
LittleHurt05 Posted February 8, 2012 Share Posted February 8, 2012 QUOTE (caulfield12 @ Feb 8, 2012 -> 09:18 AM) That's where Greg enters the conversation. Ozzie, love him or hate him, comes across as more "real" or more "genuine," he's the guy you would actually prefer to eat at Applebee's or Chili's with, or have a beer with, etc. KW just has that aloof attitude, that cockiness and arrogance...it reminds me of the the comment that came out about not caring about the "really rich" and "really poor" people from the primary season. KW doesn't care about the average Sox fan or message board poster at all. He should be a little more in tune with the fanbase, IMO. He always seems to put his foot in his mouth, and everyone's tired of his "crying poor" act and blaming the fans for not supporting the lousy product which he produced and is responsible for. Not that Hahn is any less arrogant or overconfident or full of himself, they both have that quality, which is probably why they get along so well together, as long as Hahn "stays in his place." Ozzie didn't know how to do that....the last 6 years have been more about proving who's the most important/integral/critical to the organization, Ozzie or Kenny. I've never loved Williams the person, but I at least have to accord him respect for what he did in 2005. But that's where it ends...and six years is now quite a long time ago. The clock is ticking....as Maximus says to Commodus in Gladiator, "the time for honoring yourself will soon be at an end." Please tell me why any of that matters. Fans care about their team winning games, not whether or not the GM is friendly with them or understands them. You could be the nicest, most down-to-earth GM in sports, if your teams suck, the fans will want you out. KW is no different person than he was 5 years ago. Just 5 years ago, he was coming off a WS title, now his teams are perenially underachieving. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
fathom Posted February 8, 2012 Share Posted February 8, 2012 QUOTE (LittleHurt05 @ Feb 8, 2012 -> 04:44 PM) Please tell me why any of that matters. Fans care about their team winning games, not whether or not the GM is friendly with them or understands them. You could be the nicest, most down-to-earth GM in sports, if your teams suck, the fans will want you out. KW is no different person than he was 5 years ago. Just 5 years ago, he was coming off a WS title, now his teams are perenially underachieving. You never hear KW brag about how much money he has like Ozzie has. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Quin Posted February 8, 2012 Share Posted February 8, 2012 I'd eat with Ozzie back in 1986 when he told my brother "I am your favorite player, you are my favorite fan." It's a hellishly cool home video and my brother was 3. He's been more of an Ozzie fan then Greg since that day. Today's Ozzie? He complain about everything, brag about his "sacrifices", and then talk about his money while going "jajajajajaja" Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Quin Posted February 8, 2012 Share Posted February 8, 2012 QUOTE (Dick Allen @ Feb 8, 2012 -> 10:35 AM) JR doesn't let anyone just walk away from their jobs unless they really want to. Ozzie Guillen. He let him walk because he was making a mockery of the franchise. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
southsider2k5 Posted February 8, 2012 Author Share Posted February 8, 2012 QUOTE (Dick Allen @ Feb 8, 2012 -> 10:10 AM) When you offer someone based on the reasonable assumption they will not accept the offer, its not really an offer. Now, if KW resigned and JR talked him into staying on, that would be different. In other words, KW's offer was............phony. Ask Jay Mariotti was an offer to resign looks like. If you make the offer to your boss, it is real. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dick Allen Posted February 8, 2012 Share Posted February 8, 2012 QUOTE (southsider2k5 @ Feb 8, 2012 -> 12:19 PM) Ask Jay Mariotti was an offer to resign looks like. If you make the offer to your boss, it is real. LOL, you're comparing JR/KW to Jay Mariotti/Sun Times. Are you drunk? And again, KW never offered to resign. He offered to become a scout and he would be paid like a GM to scout. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dick Allen Posted February 8, 2012 Share Posted February 8, 2012 (edited) QUOTE (Quinarvy @ Feb 8, 2012 -> 12:13 PM) Ozzie Guillen. He let him walk because he was making a mockery of the franchise. He let him walk because he really wanted to walk and had a 4 year contract lined up. KW never told JR he wanted out, he said "if you want to make a change....". If JR wanted to make a change, he wouldn't need KW's approval. A change would have already been made. Edited February 8, 2012 by Dick Allen Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
southsider2k5 Posted February 8, 2012 Author Share Posted February 8, 2012 QUOTE (Dick Allen @ Feb 8, 2012 -> 12:41 PM) LOL, you're comparing JR/KW to Jay Mariotti/Sun Times. Are you drunk? And again, KW never offered to resign. He offered to become a scout and he would be paid like a GM to scout. You have no idea if that is actually true or not, but yet you keep repeating it. I'd really like to see some actual proof of that. As for the beginning it is proof that offering a resignation means you are offering to resign. It is out of your control what your boss does with it. Just because you imagine he didn't think Jerry would accept it, doesn't make it any less legally binding. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
southsider2k5 Posted February 8, 2012 Author Share Posted February 8, 2012 QUOTE (Dick Allen @ Feb 8, 2012 -> 12:43 PM) He let him walk because he really wanted to walk and had a 4 year contract lined up. KW never told JR he wanted out, he said "if you want to make a change....". If JR wanted to make a change, he wouldn't need KW's approval. A change would have already been made. So in essence it is different because the Marlins had already been tampering with ozzie? That is a pretty weak argument. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dick Allen Posted February 8, 2012 Share Posted February 8, 2012 (edited) QUOTE (southsider2k5 @ Feb 8, 2012 -> 12:46 PM) You have no idea if that is actually true or not, but yet you keep repeating it. I'd really like to see some actual proof of that. As for the beginning it is proof that offering a resignation means you are offering to resign. It is out of your control what your boss does with it. Just because you imagine he didn't think Jerry would accept it, doesn't make it any less legally binding. Yes I do. Its in his contract. And for the 3rd time, he didn't offer to resign. He offered to switch positions. If he offered to resign, and JR accepted, he'd be out some money. If he switched positions, he still gets paid, and if the White Sox fire him he gets one year severance, something he would also be out of if he resigned. KW has been with JR since basically 1982. He knew exactly what he was going to say when given KW's offer. I think you know that as well, but don't want to admit it. Edited February 8, 2012 by Dick Allen Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dick Allen Posted February 8, 2012 Share Posted February 8, 2012 QUOTE (southsider2k5 @ Feb 8, 2012 -> 12:48 PM) So in essence it is different because the Marlins had already been tampering with ozzie? That is a pretty weak argument. No, its different because Ozzie, who was under contract for 2012 and was not fired, quit because HE wanted to leave, not because JR wanted him to quit. KW offered to change positions if JR wanted him to no longer be the GM. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
southsider2k5 Posted February 8, 2012 Author Share Posted February 8, 2012 QUOTE (Dick Allen @ Feb 8, 2012 -> 12:53 PM) Yes I do. Its in his contract. And for the 3rd time, he didn't offer to resign. He offered to switch positions. If he offered to resign, and JR accepted, he'd be out some money. If he switched positions, he still gets paid, and if the White Sox fire him he gets one year severance, something he would also be out of if he resigned. KW has been with JR since basically 1982. He knew exactly what he was going to say when given KW's offer. I think you know that as well, but don't want to admit it. When did you see Kenny Williams contract? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dick Allen Posted February 8, 2012 Share Posted February 8, 2012 QUOTE (southsider2k5 @ Feb 8, 2012 -> 01:10 PM) When did you see Kenny Williams contract? It was on one of the contract sites. He has an automatic rollover and a one year severance if he gets fired. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
iamshack Posted February 8, 2012 Share Posted February 8, 2012 QUOTE (Dick Allen @ Feb 8, 2012 -> 01:53 PM) Yes I do. Its in his contract. And for the 3rd time, he didn't offer to resign. He offered to switch positions. If he offered to resign, and JR accepted, he'd be out some money. If he switched positions, he still gets paid, and if the White Sox fire him he gets one year severance, something he would also be out of if he resigned. Kenny's salary probably wouldn't play a big role in determining whether he was the guy you wanted to keep his job or not. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
southsider2k5 Posted February 8, 2012 Author Share Posted February 8, 2012 QUOTE (Dick Allen @ Feb 8, 2012 -> 01:15 PM) It was on one of the contract sites. He has an automatic rollover and a one year severance if he gets fired. I sure couldn't find it. Link? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dick Allen Posted February 8, 2012 Share Posted February 8, 2012 QUOTE (iamshack @ Feb 8, 2012 -> 01:18 PM) Kenny's salary probably wouldn't play a big role in determining whether he was the guy you wanted to keep his job or not. Apparently it probably isn't even enough to sign a Cuban to pitch for Kannapolis, but it would be significant I would think for KW, especially since he probably would have to accept a lesser role with another organization since GM jobs are really limited and he has made some questionable moves lately. KW knew as I know and you know and everyone else knows, if JR didn't want KW to be the GM, he wouldn't be the GM. So it was pretty obvious how he would respond to KW's offer. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dick Allen Posted February 8, 2012 Share Posted February 8, 2012 (edited) QUOTE (southsider2k5 @ Feb 8, 2012 -> 01:24 PM) I sure couldn't find it. Link? I don't have the link. I read it a year ago, it might have been on mlbtraderumors.com. Do you have a link to the offer of resignation? Here's a similar one, but it appears outdated: http://www.baseballprospectus.com/compensa...ots/?page_id=84 Edited February 8, 2012 by Dick Allen Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
YASNY Posted February 8, 2012 Share Posted February 8, 2012 After reading all this crap, let me just say this .... Pitchers and catchers report 2 weeks from tomorrow! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
southsider2k5 Posted February 8, 2012 Author Share Posted February 8, 2012 QUOTE (Dick Allen @ Feb 8, 2012 -> 01:27 PM) I don't have the link. I read it a year ago, it might have been on mlbtraderumors.com. Do you have a link to the offer of resignation? Here's a similar one, but it appears outdated: http://www.baseballprospectus.com/compensa...ots/?page_id=84 http://www.dailyherald.com/article/2011092...orts/709299659/ The big thing you are missing is if JR accepts Kenny's offer of resigning from his position, his contract is then invalid. Unless it expressly guarantees him a lesser position at the same price as an option, his contract is for his position as general manager. It doesn't matter if he offers to be a scout instead, unless it is expressly spelled out in the deal. At the point where Jerry said yes, it is a new deal and the old one invalid based on the agreement of both of the contracted parties. The rollover clause is irrelevant because overwhelming odds are it is for his job as GM. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Recommended Posts
Join the conversation
You can post now and register later. If you have an account, sign in now to post with your account.