Obamanation Re-election MegaThread

[StrangeSox]

Ignoring the pill version, I'm guessing most women who get physical abortions don't know exactly what will happen or what the effects will be. They set up an appointment with a doctor but they're given the explanation right there. That's not enough time to consider the ramifications of the decision IMO

 

It's pretty insulting to assume that a woman seeking an abortion doesn't understand the ramifications of what "having an abortion" means. You don't need to know the procedure step-by-step to understand the end result.

 

I'd be pretty shocked to learn that the 24hr waiting period actually causes people to reconsider after the consultation and isn't just another hurdle.

[Soxbadger]

Strangesox,

 

Right or wrong, an abortion can be a life changing decision. People should be informed about their decision and they should then be free to make the choice they want after being informed.

 

I can see some negatives of allowing someone a same day abortion, so I could be convinced that having a 24 hour wait before appointment could be beneficial for everyone.

 

To be completely non-hypocritical, it would be similar to waiting to buy a gun, etc.

 

Its not so far fetched to say there should be some waiting, I just think that in general most people cant get abortions the day they set the appointment, so its really a non-issue.

[BigSqwert]

Who doesn't know what an abortion is? We aren't dealing with 9 year old girls showing up to get them.

[Jenksismyhero]

It's pretty insulting to assume that a woman seeking an abortion doesn't understand the ramifications of what "having an abortion" means. You don't need to know the procedure step-by-step to understand the end result.

 

I'd be pretty shocked to learn that the 24hr waiting period actually causes people to reconsider after the consultation and isn't just another hurdle.

 

I'd bet a lot don't know about the emotional/mental ramifications, which are the most important ones.

[StrangeSox]

Exactly. What sort of new knowledge do women who know they are pregnant and want to terminate that pregnancy have to consider during that 24 hours?

 

Aside from knowing that they're going to have the run the gauntlet of anti-abortion protesters when they go back to the clinic again.

 

[StrangeSox]

I'd bet a lot don't know about the emotional/mental ramifications, which are the most important ones.

 

On what basis do you make this assumption?

[StrangeSox]

Its not so far fetched to say there should be some waiting, I just think that in general most people cant get abortions the day they set the appointment, so its really a non-issue.

 

This isn't true. In states that haven't passed 24-hr laws, you can have the procedure performed in one visit.

[StrangeSox]

Here's an article that provides a pretty good backdrop on the problems with these laws.

 

http://cregs.sfsu.edu/article/womans_right...ion_law_alabama

[Jenksismyhero]

Part 1, I dont think 24 hours is a huge barrier either, which is why Id have to see the proposal. As I said, it generally goes, first to gyno, then a separate visit days/weeks later for the actual abortion. In that case they usually have spent days/weeks after the gyno visit thinking about their choice. There absolutely should not be any requirement to then wait again at the next appoint.

 

Part 2, it may be a weak standard, but I dont have a better one. Human features does not make something alive, if I create a robot that looks and operates exactly like a human, it would have no rights, why? Because being alive goes beyond mimicking humanity, it goes beyond having human features, it means that it actually has to be a living/breathing human, so while the cells may imitate life, they are definitely not alive.

 

I just do not see any compelling reason to give govt the power to protect that which is not alive. I already think its troubling how much power the govt has over our personal life, so when in doubt, I side against govt.

 

This makes no sense to me. How can cells that make up a person "imitate life?" We're not talking about cells in a petri dish here. We're talking about a developing human being, one that cannot survive without the mother but nonetheless operates in every way just like a human with human parts - blood, electric impulses, etc.

 

[Jenksismyhero]

On what basis do you make this assumption?

 

I read something a while ago that 20-30% of women regret the decision, even years later. There are also studies that have shown that some women suffer from depression or other mental anxiety over it. I'm not suggesting that it's the overwhelming majority but enough to suggest it's not some easy to decision to be taken lightly for everyone.

[StrangeSox]

I read something a while ago that 20-30% of women regret the decision, even years later. There are also studies that have shown that some women suffer from depression or other mental anxiety over it. I'm not suggesting that it's the overwhelming majority but enough to suggest it's not some easy to decision to be taken lightly for everyone.

 

This is the insulting part--the assumption that women choose abortion on a whim and don't really understand anything about it and they wouldn't make this choice if only they did.

 

What evidence is there that women are ignorant of the gravity of the decision they are making over their reproductive health? What evidence is there that the women who do regret it were ignorant and took the situation lightly?

 

BTW, I see parallels here between the increased rates of depression and substance abuse in the LGBT community. When someone is consistently shamed, there's going to be an impact. I'm not going to google a bunch of abortion studies at work, though. I wouldn't be shocked if abortion rates fell in states that enacted 24hr waiting periods, but that single stat wouldn't tell us if it was due to informing these ignorant women of the ramifications of their choices or if it is due to the extra hurdles and expenses imposed. You'd need to somehow find out how many women changed their mind after the consultation.

Edited May 7, 2012 by StrangeSox

[Balta1701]

I read something a while ago that 20-30% of women regret the decision, even years later. There are also studies that have shown that some women suffer from depression or other mental anxiety over it. I'm not suggesting that it's the overwhelming majority but enough to suggest it's not some easy to decision to be taken lightly for everyone.

While the other numbers are certainly true, this is the key statement here...the accusation that it is an easy decision which is taken lightly, which 24 hours of a lecture will change.

[Jenksismyhero]

The Burdens of Knowledge

 

The Act’s use of the language of “knowledge” and “rights” distorts the actual messages that women receive as they move through the abortion process. Throughout this process, Brenda is actually being asked: “Do you understand the consequences of what you’re doing?” and “How can we make it harder for you?” The emphasis on “knowledge” and “rights” in the Act only serves to mask these messages. The Act is designed to evoke Brenda’s so-called maternal instincts (i.e. parental responsibilities) as well as her fears of injury or death. The informational materials highlight threats to her health including infertility. The state inserts itself into Brenda’s decision-making through last minute pressure tactics with the purpose of bringing about a change of heart. The Act forces women to reconsider their decision through the 24-hour waiting period. Its effectiveness in terms of “cooling off” is apparent in the large number of women who fail to return for the procedure.

 

 

Lol, ok seriously? So-called? Do maternal instincts not exist or something? I like how "informing" is equated to fear mongering. Seriously, this would be like me arguing that all of the paperwork I have to fill out before a surgery, or my doctor telling me of the various risks of the surgery, is an effort to steer me away from the procedure. Or....maybe it's just informing me of what's about to happen in order to make sure that i'm 100% committed to having the surgery performed.

 

I'm 100% with you that some of the laws are ridiculous, liking being forced to watch an abortion procedure on video before making a decision. Informing and counseling about the decision is a far cry from that though.

 

[Soxbadger]

This makes no sense to me. How can cells that make up a person "imitate life?" We're not talking about cells in a petri dish here. We're talking about a developing human being, one that cannot survive without the mother but nonetheless operates in every way just like a human with human parts - blood, electric impulses, etc.

 

Then what is your position, they are alive immediately at conception and therefore deserving of protection?

 

Ive taken the time to try and outline my position, I get that you disagree with it, but instead of rehashing the same argument, why not present me with your position and why its better than mine.

[Jenksismyhero]

Then what is your position, they are alive immediately at conception and therefore deserving of protection?

 

Ive taken the time to try and outline my position, I get that you disagree with it, but instead of rehashing the same argument, why not present me with your position and why its better than mine.

 

I told you i'd go with 4-5 weeks, the point of time where a heartbeat can be heard.

[StrangeSox]

Lol, ok seriously? So-called? Do maternal instincts not exist or something? I like how "informing" is equated to fear mongering. Seriously, this would be like me arguing that all of the paperwork I have to fill out before a surgery, or my doctor telling me of the various risks of the surgery, is an effort to steer me away from the procedure. Or....maybe it's just informing me of what's about to happen in order to make sure that i'm 100% committed to having the surgery performed.

 

I'm not sure what that phrase refers to, but it's really a minor point to the larger issue.

 

It's appropriate to use "informing" in scare quotes because the language is specifically required to be strongly anti-abortion. Compare it to abstinence-only education that "informs" students how terribly ineffective contraceptives are at preventing pregnancy and STD's--surprise, surprise, the students who are "informed" of these messages are much less likely to use contraceptives.

 

[Jenksismyhero]

This is the insulting part--the assumption that women choose abortion on a whim and don't really understand anything about it and they wouldn't make this choice if only they did.

 

What evidence is there that women are ignorant of the gravity of the decision they are making over their reproductive health? What evidence is there that the women who do regret it were ignorant and took the situation lightly?

 

BTW, I see parallels here between the increased rates of depression and substance abuse in the LGBT community. When someone is consistently shamed, there's going to be an impact. I'm not going to google a bunch of abortion studies at work, though. I wouldn't be shocked if abortion rates fell in states that enacted 24hr waiting periods, but that single stat wouldn't tell us if it was due to informing these ignorant women of the ramifications of their choices or if it is due to the extra hurdles and expenses imposed. You'd need to somehow find out how many women changed their mind after the consultation.

 

75% of women who get abortions are 30 or younger, and nearly 60% are low income. I don't think it's all that much of a jump to conclude that these women don't have all day to surf the internet to come to an informed decision about it.

[Soxbadger]

Okay so you merely disagree at the time frame and as Ive said, Im willing to leave that up to science.

 

If we are going to shrink the time frame, then we also need to increase availability of morning after, as well as remove any "24 hour waiting" or similar periods, because we have to ensure a mother has access to an abortion within 4-5 weeks.

 

Would you consider a law that made every pregnant mother have to get a consultation on abortion, and be given an appointment for one if they desire, within the first week of pregnancy?

Edited May 7, 2012 by Soxbadger

[BigSqwert]

75% of women who get abortions are 30 or younger, and nearly 60% are low income. I don't think it's all that much of a jump to conclude that these women don't have all day to surf the internet to come to an informed decision about it.

Before the internet women would go in to the doctor asking for an abortion, thinking they were just getting their blood pressure taken. Thank God for the internet to educate everyone!

[BigSqwert]

And 4 to 5 weeks? Some women find out they're pregnant when they miss their period. That's 4 weeks right there.

[StrangeSox]

75% of women who get abortions are 30 or younger, and nearly 60% are low income. I don't think it's all that much of a jump to conclude that these women don't have all day to surf the internet to come to an informed decision about it.

 

Women who are seeking an abortion already know that they're pregnant (unnecessary ultrasound and sonogram laws) and know the end result of their procedure: terminating the pregnancy. You don't need to surf the internet all day to be aware of the choice you're making.

 

Making that nearly 60% that is low income pay for an additional office visit and in many cases travel costs and child care places a substantial burden on them.

[Jenksismyhero]

Okay so you merely disagree at the time frame and as Ive said, Im willing to leave that up to science.

 

If we are going to shrink the time frame, then we also need to increase availability of morning after, as well as remove any "24 hour waiting" or similar periods, because we have to ensure a mother has access to an abortion within 4-5 weeks.

 

Would you consider a law that made every pregnant mother have to get a consultation on abortion and be given an appointment for one if they desire, within the first week of pregnancy?

 

I don't see why we need to "increase" the availability of the morning after pill. If it's available, as it is now, then that's all that is required.

 

In order to get the pill you need to visit a doctor anyway right? So there doesn't need to be a requirement for a consultation.

[StrangeSox]

Okay so you merely disagree at the time frame and as Ive said, Im willing to leave that up to science.

It's more of a philosophical question than a scientific one imo.

[Jenksismyhero]

And 4 to 5 weeks? Some women find out they're pregnant when they miss their period. That's 4 weeks right there.

 

Yeah, admittedly that's the problem. But around that period of time. Certainly not 20 weeks later.

[StrangeSox]

And 4 to 5 weeks? Some women find out they're pregnant when they miss their period. That's 4 weeks right there.

 

Technically 6 weeks in Arizona now!