Obamanation Re-election MegaThread

[southsider2k5]

Carnegie immigrated to the U.S. when the U.S. immigration laws required:

 

 

The first quota based immigration law didn't appear until the 1880's when the U.S. realized too many yellow Chinese people were coming in to the country and we had to do something about that. If he didn't already have family here, there's a decent chance Carnegie would have been unable to immigrate to the U.S. under current law, or if he did, he'd have a 10 year waiting period.

 

I'm glad you get to throw around racist terms. It really helps the discussion.

[StrangeSox]

I'm glad you get to throw around racist terms. It really helps the discussion.

 

He's describing what those laws were and why they were enacted. They were racist laws to keep out undesirables.

[Balta1701]

I'm glad you get to throw around racist terms. It really helps the discussion.

The quota system you're defending exists solely because of race. The reason why we have quotas on immigration that are too low to satisfy demand for immigrants in the first place is race. At least I got you to notice it.

[southsider2k5]

Amnesty is patching a hole left by unworkable laws. Amnesty without reform is a bad idea. Deportation without reform is a dumb, expensive, unrealistic idea. History bears both of those statements out.

 

 

-The first law passed needs to be that any caught in the country willfully illegally (or aiding someone to do so) is barred from ever becoming a citizen.

-The second is massive fines for hiring illegal labor.

-The third is to get rid of all nationality quota, and replace it with a system based on needs of families to escape hardships (things like war and genocide would get preferencial treatment vs things like poverty) and have them matched to industries and companies looking for specific skill sets in employees.

 

Instead of playing this game of waiting out the next amnesty period, you bring people to the country who actually have the greatest needs, and you provide them with a much clearer path to becoming contributing members of society.

[southsider2k5]

He's describing what those laws were and why they were enacted. They were racist laws to keep out undesirables.

 

And using racist terminology to do so.

[southsider2k5]

The quota system you're defending exists solely because of race. The reason why we have quotas on immigration that are too low to satisfy demand for immigrants in the first place is race. At least I got you to notice it.

 

Of course I noticed you throwing around racist terminology. It seems to be a favorite tactic.

[Balta1701]

He's describing what those laws were and why they were enacted. They were racist laws to keep out undesirables.

The only reason why it makes any sense to have the system be a "Quota" number, with no connection at all to availability of work or desirability of skills, is that you can't let too many from a certain "group" get in. If you designed a system without regard to keeping out the undesirables, you'd tie it to employment, like we do at some level with the high-skilled immigrant Visas. Instead we put quotas on it and then insist on how terrible it is for people to be violating the laws when they exceed those quotas.

[Balta1701]

Of course I noticed you throwing around racist terminology. It seems to be a favorite tactic.

And of course you object when the racist thread running through the current quota system gets pointed out, because then the heroic stand of "How dare they not follow the laws!" suddenly gets that nasty, dirty connection to defending where those laws came from.

[StrangeSox]

-The first law passed needs to be that any caught in the country willfully illegally (or aiding someone to do so) is barred from ever becoming a citizen.

 

So what do you do with the 10+ million here now?

 

-The second is massive fines for hiring illegal labor.

 

This has adverse affects on minority populations, legal or not. There are serious unintended consequences to consider.

 

-The third is to get rid of all nationality quota, and replace it with a system based on needs of families to escape hardships (things like war and genocide would get preferencial treatment vs things like poverty) and have them matched to industries and companies looking for specific skill sets in employees.

 

How does that actually address the problem of millions coming here illegally to escape poverty?

 

 

[southsider2k5]

And of course you object when the racist thread running through the current quota system gets pointed out, because then the heroic stand of "How dare they not follow the laws!" suddenly gets that nasty, dirty connection to defending where those laws came from.

 

Did I miss someone else using yellow, or something similar, to describe immigrants?

[StrangeSox]

Of course I noticed you throwing around racist terminology. It seems to be a favorite tactic.

 

It's a law with a racist foundation and he was pointing out the original and explicit reasoning behind those laws.

[StrangeSox]

Did I miss someone else using yellow, or something similar, to describe immigrants?

 

Yes, the people balta was referring to in his post who originally came up with the quota system.

[Balta1701]

Did I miss someone else using yellow, or something similar, to describe immigrants?

Yeah, the United States government, because that's why we have immigration laws and quotas for certain countries in the first place.

[southsider2k5]

So what do you do with the 10+ million here now?

 

 

 

This has adverse affects on minority populations, legal or not. There are serious unintended consequences to consider.

 

 

 

How does that actually address the problem of millions coming here illegally to escape poverty?

 

No amnesty. The people who are here can decide what they want to do.

 

The last one actually matches people to jobs. It keeps a control on the system as to not overburden it with people we can't support. Our social networks are already strained to the breaking point. That is reality.

[southsider2k5]

It's a law with a racist foundation and he was pointing out the original and explicit reasoning behind those laws.

 

By using racist and intentionally inflammatory terminology to do so.

[StrangeSox]

No amnesty. The people who are here can decide what they want to do.

 

The last one actually matches people to jobs. It keeps a control on the system as to not overburden it with people we can't support. Our social networks are already strained to the breaking point. That is reality.

 

So you don't really have any solution at all to address the millions already here or the millions who will want to come in the future. Just a tweaking of the quota system to let in less poors from latin america legally, which seems to me would only exacerbate the problem.

[StrangeSox]

By using racist and intentionally inflammatory terminology to do so.

 

Right, that's exactly what those laws did when they establish quotas. They used racist and inflammatory terminology to degrade and dehumanize immigrant groups. I'm glad we can all agree on that.

[Balta1701]

Right, that's exactly what those laws did when they establish quotas. They used racist and inflammatory terminology to degrade and dehumanize immigrant groups. I'm glad we can all agree on that.

It's much easier to insist "They're breaking the law, we can't support that!" when you don't have to confront the racist past and present of the law.

[southsider2k5]

So you don't really have any solution at all to address the millions already here or the millions who will want to come in the future. Just a tweaking of the quota system to let in less poors from latin america legally, which seems to me would only exacerbate the problem.

 

Its a system that matches people to needs in this country. It is also a system that benefits the people who need it the most in the world. It gets rid of the geographic and de facto religious protections built into the system that rewards you today for "being here". In a system where you are going to have to make choices about who you let immigrate, I'd rather save the victims of a genocide or war first. For example, I'd rather save people fleeing from their government bombing them in Syria, versus someone just trying to make a bit more money from anywhere else. The system would be flexible in that it would be easy to adjust to changes in geo-political changes around the world as they happen. It would also aid immigrants as they would be coming over with skills in demand in the US, which would aid their transition into economic stability here.

[southsider2k5]

Right, that's exactly what those laws did when they establish quotas. They used racist and inflammatory terminology to degrade and dehumanize immigrant groups. I'm glad we can all agree on that.

 

So if I am talking about Jim Crow laws, I can just drop the N-bomb because someone did 150 years ago? Uh, ok.

[southsider2k5]

It's much easier to insist "They're breaking the law, we can't support that!" when you don't have to confront the racist past and present of the law.

 

Except no one here is doing that, but OK.

[StrangeSox]

So if I am talking about Jim Crow laws, I can just drop the N-bomb because someone did 150 years ago? Uh, ok.

 

If you're accurately describing the motivations of the proponents of those laws (and doing so in a condescending and ridiculing manner, as Balta was), maybe.

[Balta1701]

Except no one here is doing that, but OK.

So I can't go back and find 15 posts saying that the current 10 million+ illegal immigrants who are here are breaking the law?

[StrangeSox]

Its a system that matches people to needs in this country. It is also a system that benefits the people who need it the most in the world. It gets rid of the geographic and de facto religious protections built into the system that rewards you today for "being here". In a system where you are going to have to make choices about who you let immigrate, I'd rather save the victims of a genocide or war first. For example, I'd rather save people fleeing from their government bombing them in Syria, versus someone just trying to make a bit more money from anywhere else. The system would be flexible in that it would be easy to adjust to changes in geo-political changes around the world as they happen. It would also aid immigrants as they would be coming over with skills in demand in the US, which would aid their transition into economic stability here.

 

Don't we offer political assylum separate from our immigration quota system now?

 

And how does this address the millions of Mexicans, Guatemalans, Hondurans, Costa Ricans, etc. who will want to come here to escape poverty, would prefer to do so legally but will do so illegally if there is no other choice, literally risking life and limb in many cases to do so?

 

How is this much different from arguments that were used in favor of excluding southern and eastern Europeans that claimed they were poor, sickly, unskilled and unable to adapt or contribute to American society?

[Balta1701]

Don't we offer political assylum separate from our immigration quota system now?

 

And how does this address the millions of Mexicans, Guatemalans, Hondurans, Costa Ricans, etc. who will want to come here to escape poverty, would prefer to do so legally but will do so illegally if there is no other choice, literally risking life and limb in many cases to do so?

 

How is this much different from arguments that were used in favor of excluding southern and eastern Europeans that claimed they were poor, sickly, unskilled and unable to adapt or contribute to American society?

The sad thing is, I actually agree with him that there's little reason to give preference to Latin American immigrants over the rest of the world, and a world-wide guest worker program with an eventual path to citizenship would be the most fair system you could construct.

 

The problem is, when you advocate that and at the same time insist that we can't do anything that would be unfair to deal with the mess that we've created by insisting on the importance of following the current racially-based quota system...then you're just using the perfect setup to make sure nothing ever changes, and blaming the people who come here for the flaws in the racist law.