Obamanation Re-election MegaThread

[Cknolls]

They won't come if there aren't jobs for them.

 

 

But the free healthcare and education is just as good if not better.

[Cknolls]

We don't have actual free health care. We have less socialized health care than many latin american countries.

 

 

Illegal alien walks into cook county hospital with a "problem", how much do they pay? 0. how much do you pay? 0

Edited June 19, 2012 by Cknolls

[StrangeSox]

Illegal alien walks into cook county hospital with a "problem", how much do they pay? 0. how much do you pay? 0

 

Emergency care isn't health care.

[Cknolls]

Emergency care isn't health care.

 

 

Being treated by a doctor in a hospital and hopefully getting well soon thereafter, is not healthcare. Must be some liberalese that us right wing wackos can't understand. So if a citizen with insurance goes to the hospital for treatment of a broken arm, it is.......? Emergency care is not healthcare because it is not paid for by the people who utilize it the most. Tell them they are not receiving healthcare and they would laugh in your face.

[Cknolls]

Emergency care isn't health care.

 

 

Then all emergency care should be exempt from BOcare.?

[StrangeSox]

Being treated by a doctor in a hospital and hopefully getting well soon thereafter, is not healthcare. Must be some liberalese that us right wing wackos can't understand. So if a citizen with insurance goes to the hospital for treatment of a broken arm, it is.......? Emergency care is not healthcare because it is not paid for by the people who utilize it the most. Tell them they are not receiving healthcare and they would laugh in your face.

 

ER's can now treat cancer and other long-term illnesses, it's true!

[Quin]

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[southsider2k5]

Not if an employer doesn't ask for it and the work is undocumented, e.g. contractors picking up day-laborers outside of Home Depot and paying cash.

 

Hence the massive fines for hiring illegal labor.

[StrangeSox]

Hence the massive fines for hiring illegal labor.

 

Which has harsh consequences on employers' willingness to hire non-whites for fear that they *might* be illegal.

 

Then there's the problem that you're still using government forces to contradict market forces, namely that there are jobs to be done and people willing to do them but an arbitrary line on a map stopping them from coming together. You're essentially fine with the current rules, you just want stronger enforcement of them. You're not realizing that the current rules are terrible.

Edited June 20, 2012 by StrangeSox

[StrangeSox]

This essay from almost 30 years ago is still very relevant:

 

http://andrsn.stanford.edu/Other/illegal.html

[southsider2k5]

Which has harsh consequences on employers' willingness to hire non-whites for fear that they *might* be illegal.

 

Then there's the problem that you're still using government forces to contradict market forces, namely that there are jobs to be done and people willing to do them but an arbitrary line on a map stopping them from coming together. You're essentially fine with the current rules, you just want stronger enforcement of them. You're not realizing that the current rules are terrible.

 

The problem is that you are unwilling to accept that market forces work more than one way. As long as we have a massive social structure in place, there is a cost to immigration that wasn't here generations ago. The rest of the post just isn't true.

[StrangeSox]

Oh ok.

[Balta1701]

The problem is that you are unwilling to accept that market forces work more than one way. As long as we have a massive social structure in place, there is a cost to immigration that wasn't here generations ago. The rest of the post just isn't true.

Of course those costs weren't here generations ago. That's why no one in their right mind argued that the costs of dealing with new immigrants would be excessive a century and a half ago and it's impossible for me to simply google quotes to that effect.

What means the paying of the passage and emptying out upon our shores such floods of pauper emigrants — the contents of the poor house and the sweepings of the streets? — multiplying tumults and violence, filling our prisons, and crowding our poor-houses, and quadrupling our taxation, and sending annually accumulating thousands to the poll to lay their inexperienced hand upon the helm of our power?

- Lyman Beecher, Leader of the Second Great Awakening, on English immigrants, 1834

The arguments really have always been the same. They'll bring crime, disease, and poverty, and something new about this generation will make it worse than the last generation.

[southsider2k5]

Of course those costs weren't here generations ago. That's why no one in their right mind argued that the costs of dealing with new immigrants would be excessive a century and a half ago and it's impossible for me to simply google quotes to that effect.

The arguments really have always been the same. They'll bring crime, disease, and poverty, and something new about this generation will make it worse than the last generation.

 

Are you seriously comparing the costs of social structure in 1834 to 2012? Because google works for that as well.

[StrangeSox]

He's saying that the anti-immigration arguments have been damn near word-for-word identical for over a century (and probably through much of history in many cultures, to be honest) with [insert minority group] blanks filled in differently based on the time period.

[Jenksismyhero]

ER's can now treat cancer and other long-term illnesses, it's true!

 

John Stroger has a cancer clinic that's free. Rush has a free cancer clinic. Most major hospitals in the area do. The idea that this country doesn't already have free healthcare to the poor/people who can't afford insurance is laughable.

[StrangeSox]

Damn, you're right. I don't know why anyone thinks millions in this country don't have access to health care. There's so many free clinics everywhere its a wonder that any for-profit hospitals and clinics can stay in business.

 

eta: have you ever been without health insurance and needed health care?

Edited June 20, 2012 by StrangeSox

[Y2HH]

Damn, you're right. I don't know why anyone thinks millions in this country don't have access to health care. There's so many free clinics everywhere its a wonder that any for-profit hospitals and clinics can stay in business.

 

eta: have you ever been without health insurance and needed health care?

 

You can spin this all you want...

 

Free care exists, right here, right now. The issue isn't whether it exists (since it does), the issue is that it's very inconvenient, poorly located, wasteful (ER care), and takes too damn long for what would probably be a 5 minute session. A lot of this is due to uneducated people who go to ER's or doctors because they (or their child) has the sniffles. While a lot of clinics do not offer this care...there are those to do...but, as stated above, they're inconveniently located, poorly run, and when you do go to one, expect to wait 5 hours for someone to look at you for all of 5 minutes.

 

Edit: To pretend access to free care doesn't exist is outright false. You can, however, argue it's unbelievable shortcomings all day long, and I'd agree.

Edited June 20, 2012 by Y2HH

[StrangeSox]

Can you provide any sort of info on free cancer treatment at Stroger? I can't seem to find anything except some occasional free screenings, and even the funding for those are running out:

http://articles.chicagotribune.com/2012-02...rmal-mammograms

[Jenksismyhero]

Damn, you're right. I don't know why anyone thinks millions in this country don't have access to health care. There's so many free clinics everywhere its a wonder that any for-profit hospitals and clinics can stay in business.

 

eta: have you ever been without health insurance and needed health care?

 

No, but I deal with this s*** and public health facilities pretty frequently as part of my job, my wife works for Rush and pimps their free services (and knows what the other area hospitals do), so I know a little more about it than reading blogs on the internet.

 

Is it a perfect system? Are they provided the best possible healthcare known to man? No. But it's free. Absolutely, 100%, free. Zero expectation for repayment (generally). Especially for a lot of major terminal illnesses because hospitals/physicians need patients to try new treatments on and gigantic organizations and donors spend billions of dollars to fund projects. Go read up on how much free cancer treatment the American Cancer Society provides. My mom had melanoma (with a great insurance plan) yet the AMA still paid her plane ticket and treatment costs to go out to Bethesda Maryland for treatment. There are literally thousands of programs like this from local community hospitals up to gigantic national organizations.

 

I forgot that since we've never had universal healthcare the bodies have been piling up for so long. So many people die on the streets because hospitals refuse to treat them. I forgot that people are making a big deal out of Quinn cutting Medicaid because no one ever uses that free money for healthcare.

 

At the end of the day the people who die because of a lack of treatment just don't know where to find it. And so there I would agree the educational side of this issue needs to be better. But the sources of treatment are there for people that need it.

 

[Jenksismyhero]

Can you provide any sort of info on free cancer treatment at Stroger? I can't seem to find anything except some occasional free screenings, and even the funding for those are running out:

http://articles.chicagotribune.com/2012-02...rmal-mammograms

 

You can't find s*** on Stroger's website. They have a free clinic though. One of my clients was receiving treatment there for about a year before she died. The cost to her? Zero dollars. Some paid by medicaid, the rest just eaten by Stroger.

[StrangeSox]

You can spin this all you want...

 

Free care exists, right here, right now. The issue isn't whether it exists (since it does), the issue is that it's very inconvenient, poorly located, wasteful (ER care), and takes too damn long for what would probably be a 5 minute session. A lot of this is due to uneducated people who go to ER's or doctors because they (or their child) has the sniffles. Then, a lot of clinics do not offer this care...but that doesn't mean there aren't clinics that don't...as stated above, they're just inconveniently located, and when you do go to one, expect to wait 5 hours for someone to look at you for all of 5 minutes.

 

That's not actual cancer (or other chronic illness) treatment. Acute, short-term health problems are handled by ER's and walk-in clinics, not long-term health problems. If you think there's actual affordable health care access for uninsured poor and middle-class Americans for serious, non-acute medical issues, you're nuts.

 

[Y2HH]

That's not actual cancer (or other chronic illness) treatment. Acute, short-term health problems are handled by ER's and walk-in clinics, not long-term health problems. If you think there's actual affordable health care access for uninsured poor and middle-class Americans for serious, non-acute medical issues, you're nuts.

 

I never said it wasn't riddled with shortcomings and issues.

[StrangeSox]

I never said it wasn't riddled with shortcomings and issues.

 

ER "health care" is only "health care" for certain limited definitions of health care, which was my point. ER's do not treat illnesses like cancer, HIV, mental illnesses, diabetes or anything else that requires routine check-ups and upkeep medication.

 

Some of this treatment can be covered via Medicaid, but there's limitations on qualifying for that (and funding issues).

[southsider2k5]

ER "health care" is only "health care" for certain limited definitions of health care, which was my point. ER's do not treat illnesses like cancer, HIV, mental illnesses, diabetes or anything else that requires routine check-ups and upkeep medication.

 

Some of this treatment can be covered via Medicaid, but there's limitations on qualifying for that (and funding issues).

 

So lets add tens of millions more to this system. What could go wrong?