The Pet Thread

[knightni]

Why wouldn't you think to think to clean it out every once and while?

There's no real way to thoroughly clean all of the germs, bacteria, and filth out of plastic bottle water dispensers. Stuff just hides out in the cracks and crevices or seeps into the plastic and rubber itself.

[iamshack]

Or if you have a smart dog, like everyone in my family has owned.

Seriously...read some books about dogs instead of going off of the 3 you've seen in your family.

 

You are recommending things to others when you don't know jack s*** about dogs.

[IlliniKrush]

Next time she goes, clean it up with a paper towel, but don't throw it away...place it on top of the puppy pads and maybe she will get the hint that way.

 

Otherwise, keep taking her out onto the balcony or outside, every few hours, and if she happens to go, act like you just won the lottery and it is the best day ever. Praise, praise, praise.

Did end up going outside once, I think more out of fear she was on a walk. Seemed very scared to be walking outside. But am doing the praise thing now when possible.

 

The other big thing, and I'm sure this is normal, is basically separation issues. She MUST be with you, touching you, etc. at all times. If you are on the couch, crying and jumping until she's up. You walk, she follows, then lays on your leg/foot. Close the door in the bedroom, bats*** crazy.

 

I've been reading articles here and there but I generally trust the people in this thread more. Just ignore the bad behavior? Praise if she's quiet and let her know that's what gets your attention? I know she just got separated from Mom and family so we're not trying to ignore her, but I figure you can't let this sort of behavior continue to grow, as annoying as the whining and yelping is.

 

Tonight we're going to try the clock/warm water bottle thing to see if it helps at all. Not expecting miracles, maybe just a step in the right direction.

[ChiliIrishHammock24]

Seriously...read some books about dogs instead of going off of the 3 you've seen in your family.

 

You are recommending things to others when you don't know jack s*** about dogs.

 

Lol, why are you so defensive? This isn't the first time you've attacked me for suggesting things that have work for every dog I have ever owned.

 

Plus, multiple different companies wouldn't mass produce these things if my dogs were the only ones it worked for.

 

There is no guarantee it will work for his dog, but for $13, I would definitely give it a shot.

[IlliniKrush]

And should we be getting up at like 3 to take her out on a schedule to go to the bathroom, or just let it go through the night? If we get her out we'd have to go outside, she hasn't peed on a pad once. It's all floor, even when we catch her right before going and put her back on the pad.

[Brian]

And should we be getting up at like 3 to take her out on a schedule to go to the bathroom, or just let it go through the night? If we get her out we'd have to go outside, she hasn't peed on a pad once. It's all floor, even when we catch her right before going and put her back on the pad.

 

I would make her wait they the night if you can. But with her bring so young, you may want to take her out for a month.

[TaylorStSox]

Did end up going outside once, I think more out of fear she was on a walk. Seemed very scared to be walking outside. But am doing the praise thing now when possible.

 

The other big thing, and I'm sure this is normal, is basically separation issues. She MUST be with you, touching you, etc. at all times. If you are on the couch, crying and jumping until she's up. You walk, she follows, then lays on your leg/foot. Close the door in the bedroom, bats*** crazy.

I've been reading articles here and there but I generally trust the people in this thread more. Just ignore the bad behavior? Praise if she's quiet and let her know that's what gets your attention? I know she just got separated from Mom and family so we're not trying to ignore her, but I figure you can't let this sort of behavior continue to grow, as annoying as the whining and yelping is.

 

Tonight we're going to try the clock/warm water bottle thing to see if it helps at all. Not expecting miracles, maybe just a step in the right direction.

Ignore the crying. When the dog lays on your foot, push it off. That's your space. Your dog has to understand that.

 

How old is the dog and how long have you had it? For the first couple of weeks you're with your dog, I wouldn't take it for walks. It's too much stimulation. Look up The Two-Week Shutdown. It's almost like a quarantine for a new dog that helps it adjust to it's environment and adjustment to a new family.

[IlliniKrush]

Dog is 8 weeks old, had it for 2 nights now. Last night was the same as the night before, still whining uncontrollably for hours at a time (how does she have the energy to even do that? You'd think she's tire herself out). Even if out of crate and in other room, goes crazy until it's near us again. It's like blood-curdling yelps.

 

I'm going to google that 2 week shutdown.

[Texsox]

It is interesting how far some people wish to elevate their dog's life from what it would be in the wild. The dogs closest wild cousins do not have someone cleaning their teeth, carefully deciding what, and how much, they can eat. Yet they seem to survive. I don't have a problem with someone that wishes to treat their animal as close as possible to a human, I also do not have a problem with someone who treats a dog like an animal.

 

It is really just how high you want to elevate the dog's life from what it would be without a human to care for it.

[iamshack]

Ok, honestly, the pup is just very young and it sounds like you've taken her to a very different environment than where she came.

 

Please, please, please, do not follow this two-week shutdown bologna. You need to do exactly the opposite. You are in a prime socialization period for the dog. You need to be introducing her to as many people as you can. As soon as she is fully vaccinated, you get her to a dog park. If you have friends with small children, INVITE THEM OVER. Take the dog in the car once a day or so.

 

Your dog will adjust to your environment, you just need to have some patience. But trust me, the answer is not keeping them in your house for two weeks, or keeping them on a leash all the time in your home, or refusing to allow them to interact with other living things for fear of overstimulation.

 

The best book on the market, one I cannot recommend enough, is "How to Be Your Dog's Best Friend," by the Monks of New Skete. The book is over 30 years old, but is recognized as a classic training manual for dogs and owners. Another great book (very similar, but maybe more focused on your particular issues) is "The Art of Raising a Puppy," by the same authors.

 

 

[illinilaw08]

Dog is 8 weeks old, had it for 2 nights now. Last night was the same as the night before, still whining uncontrollably for hours at a time (how does she have the energy to even do that? You'd think she's tire herself out). Even if out of crate and in other room, goes crazy until it's near us again. It's like blood-curdling yelps.

 

I'm going to google that 2 week shutdown.

 

I'm no expert on this, but we have had our puppy for about 7 weeks now (got him when he was 8 weeks old) and went through some of the same stuff it sounds like you are going through.

 

1) At night, we put the crate in our bedroom. He would cry when he first went in there, but being in the same room helped. He would cry for a little while and then fall asleep and that only lasted a couple nights. If he cried at 3 in the morning, I took him right outside and let him do his business and then he went right back in the crate (note, 7 weeks later, he still can't hold it through the night, but he really only cries in the crate now when he needs to go).

 

2) Puppy pads were worthless for us. Anytime the dog went on the pads, we praised the crap out of him... until we realized that he was going on the pads as a random accident. He just happened to be standing on them when he had to go.

 

3) Our guy was VERY afraid of other dogs and outside at first. We got him into a puppy kindergarten class and his first day there, he got in, saw the other dogs and cowered. Our instructor told us to just ignore him, let him adjust to all the other animals around him, and after a couple minutes he was fine. We treated him for going outside on his own, for going to the bathroom outside, on walks, for good interactions with people and other dogs. Now, while we still have the occassional accident, he's at ease with most other dogs (the dog across the street that barks at him scares him still) and is great with people.

 

Hope this helps...

[iamshack]

It is interesting how far some people wish to elevate their dog's life from what it would be in the wild. The dogs closest wild cousins do not have someone cleaning their teeth, carefully deciding what, and how much, they can eat. Yet they seem to survive. I don't have a problem with someone that wishes to treat their animal as close as possible to a human, I also do not have a problem with someone who treats a dog like an animal.

 

It is really just how high you want to elevate the dog's life from what it would be without a human to care for it.

Tex, the problem occurs when people ignore what a dog is. Dogs are not children. They are not human. As you point out indirectly, they did not evolve on couches or eating Kibbles and Bits. They evolved IN THE WILD for thousands of years, and then humans domesticated them. They are still adjusting to this domestication now.

 

Your common house dog evolved from wolves. They share many of the same biology and evolutionary experience as wolves. Their instincts are very similar. Wolves are hunters and for the most part, carnivores. They will eat other things, such as berries or grains, but their teeth have evolved to tear meat from bones. In the wild, many times, meat is scarce. Any type of food is. Therefore, when wolves kill their prey, they will often feast on every part of it except for the fur. They will eat it over the course of a day or a few days, and then rest. Their stomach does nearly all of the digesting in their gastrointestinal system, and this requires as much as 24 hours if they eat until they are full. They can then go days without food, as their bodies have evolved to process stored fat much more efficiently than humans. In fact, it is at this time when their bodies operate most efficiently...better than when they are eating on a regular basis.

 

This is basically how a dog's biology works.

 

Now think about they manner in which most people treat their dog and feed their dog.

Edited April 9, 2012 by iamshack

[iamshack]

I'm no expert on this, but we have had our puppy for about 7 weeks now (got him when he was 8 weeks old) and went through some of the same stuff it sounds like you are going through.

 

1) At night, we put the crate in our bedroom. He would cry when he first went in there, but being in the same room helped. He would cry for a little while and then fall asleep and that only lasted a couple nights. If he cried at 3 in the morning, I took him right outside and let him do his business and then he went right back in the crate (note, 7 weeks later, he still can't hold it through the night, but he really only cries in the crate now when he needs to go).

 

2) Puppy pads were worthless for us. Anytime the dog went on the pads, we praised the crap out of him... until we realized that he was going on the pads as a random accident. He just happened to be standing on them when he had to go.

 

3) Our guy was VERY afraid of other dogs and outside at first. We got him into a puppy kindergarten class and his first day there, he got in, saw the other dogs and cowered. Our instructor told us to just ignore him, let him adjust to all the other animals around him, and after a couple minutes he was fine. We treated him for going outside on his own, for going to the bathroom outside, on walks, for good interactions with people and other dogs. Now, while we still have the occassional accident, he's at ease with most other dogs (the dog across the street that barks at him scares him still) and is great with people.

 

Hope this helps...

Sounds like you guys did a great job! Glad to hear he is doing so well!

[smalls2598]

Dog is 8 weeks old, had it for 2 nights now. Last night was the same as the night before, still whining uncontrollably for hours at a time (how does she have the energy to even do that? You'd think she's tire herself out). Even if out of crate and in other room, goes crazy until it's near us again. It's like blood-curdling yelps.

 

I'm going to google that 2 week shutdown.

The wife and I just adopted a schnauzer-terrier mix (her name is Strudel and she's the cutest dog ever) last weekend. She's almost 4 months old. Like Illinilaw did with his dog, at night she's in her cage next to our bed. The first few night were the worst: she had these horrifying cries/howls. She'd stop for an hour, then start up again. She did that for the first few nights, but now she's much, much better. One thing we did was put a sound machine making a "heartbeat" noise on top of her cage, and it seemed to sooth her (we tried inside the cage first, but she seemed scared of it). She now only seems to cry when she has to do her business.

 

Actually, last night was the best one so far...we went to bed around 10ish, and she didn't cry until 415.

Edited April 9, 2012 by smalls2598

[Texsox]

Tex, the problem occurs when people ignore what a dog is. Dogs are not children. They are not human. As you point out indirectly, they did not evolve on couches or eating Kibbles and Bits. They evolved IN THE WILD for thousands of years, and then humans domesticated them. They are still adjusting to this domestication now.

 

Your common house dog evolved from wolves. They share many of the same biology and evolutionary experience as wolves. Their instincts are very similar. Wolves are hunters and for the most part, carnivores. They will eat other things, such as berries or grains, but their teeth have evolved to tear meat from bones. In the wild, many times, meat is scarce. Any type of food is. Therefore, when wolves kill their prey, they will often feast on every part of it except for the fur. They will eat it over the course of a day or a few days, and then rest. Their stomach does nearly all of the digesting in their gastrointestinal system, and this requires as much as 24 hours if they eat until they are full. They can then go days without food, as their bodies have evolved to process stored fat much more efficiently than humans. In fact, it is at this time when their bodies operate most efficiently...better than when they are eating on a regular basis.

 

This is basically how a dog's biology works.

 

Now think about they manner in which most people treat their dog and feed their dog.

 

Will this domestication lead them to kibbles and bits, or primal cuts of animal? We are at the stage where dozens and dozens of generations have been raised on kibbles and bits, seems like that part of their evolution is complete. Of course if we start comparing the very worst of the human processed foods compared to the best our conclusions will be vastly different. Are they domesticated enough that we need to regulate their food intake or are they wild enough where we can leave them a bounty of food and allow them to eat what they will?

 

Bottom line, compared to living in the wild, our domesticated dogs have a far easier life. I'm not certain if it is better. It is easier and longer. But we've taken a wild animal and locked them up in crates and houses (basically a bigger crate). We take them to the doctor and dentist, clip their nails and cut their hair. Is it better for them? I'm not certain it is.

[Balta1701]

Will this domestication lead them to kibbles and bits, or primal cuts of animal? We are at the stage where dozens and dozens of generations have been raised on kibbles and bits, seems like that part of their evolution is complete. Of course if we start comparing the very worst of the human processed foods compared to the best our conclusions will be vastly different. Are they domesticated enough that we need to regulate their food intake or are they wild enough where we can leave them a bounty of food and allow them to eat what they will?

 

Bottom line, compared to living in the wild, our domesticated dogs have a far easier life. I'm not certain if it is better. It is easier and longer. But we've taken a wild animal and locked them up in crates and houses (basically a bigger crate). We take them to the doctor and dentist, clip their nails and cut their hair. Is it better for them? I'm not certain it is.

Think about how evolution works though Tex. It's selection based on die-off rates. half a dozen generations may have been raised on Kibbles and Bits, but the question then is whether there's a big enough difference in die-off rates between groups eating processed food and groups eating the kind of meal Shack is advising. For it to happen in 6 generations would require a huge selective advantage towards eating processed grain based food and an appropriate mutation already existing within the population. They can't just "Get used to it" if it isn't in the gene pool already.

 

The extra food availability may be a big advantage...but it's not like dog owners are killing off dogs who don't eat that sort of diet, or deliberately attempting to breed it out.

[iamshack]

Will this domestication lead them to kibbles and bits, or primal cuts of animal? We are at the stage where dozens and dozens of generations have been raised on kibbles and bits, seems like that part of their evolution is complete. Of course if we start comparing the very worst of the human processed foods compared to the best our conclusions will be vastly different. Are they domesticated enough that we need to regulate their food intake or are they wild enough where we can leave them a bounty of food and allow them to eat what they will?

 

Bottom line, compared to living in the wild, our domesticated dogs have a far easier life. I'm not certain if it is better. It is easier and longer. But we've taken a wild animal and locked them up in crates and houses (basically a bigger crate). We take them to the doctor and dentist, clip their nails and cut their hair. Is it better for them? I'm not certain it is.

This is simply not true. Domesticated dogs have been eating kibble for roughly 80 years. Evolution simply does not work this quickly, Tex.

 

As to your second statement, you are doing exactly what most humans do...you are making judgments from your perspective rather than that of a dog's perspective. I know you qualified it with your next statement, but I'm not sure it is easier, to be honest.

 

 

[IlliniKrush]

Ok, honestly, the pup is just very young and it sounds like you've taken her to a very different environment than where she came.

 

Please, please, please, do not follow this two-week shutdown bologna. You need to do exactly the opposite. You are in a prime socialization period for the dog. You need to be introducing her to as many people as you can. As soon as she is fully vaccinated, you get her to a dog park. If you have friends with small children, INVITE THEM OVER. Take the dog in the car once a day or so.

 

Your dog will adjust to your environment, you just need to have some patience. But trust me, the answer is not keeping them in your house for two weeks, or keeping them on a leash all the time in your home, or refusing to allow them to interact with other living things for fear of overstimulation.

 

The best book on the market, one I cannot recommend enough, is "How to Be Your Dog's Best Friend," by the Monks of New Skete. The book is over 30 years old, but is recognized as a classic training manual for dogs and owners. Another great book (very similar, but maybe more focused on your particular issues) is "The Art of Raising a Puppy," by the same authors.

Alright, I won't. Are walks OK then? Or at least going outside?

 

I don't know if it's just the sleeping aspect that is a problem - as I said earlier, she can't not be around us. I'm on the couch, she will jump hard at the couch and yelp and yelp and give up after 5 minutes and then stop and sleep there for a few minutes. But then randomly get up and start that again. If we go in the bedroom or bathroom to get dressed or whatever and leave her free in the main room, goes nuts for a while.

 

We put the cage in the guest bathroom last night (further away for noise) and also got ear plugs and for the most part we were able to sleep. Pretty sure she cried a ton though because the few times I woke up, you could hear her in the distance.

 

Now I didn't expect a cake walk with a new puppy - and if this is normal, and goes away, it's all good. But the separation thing is crazy, and I want to make sure we're training her correctly. I ignore her if she jumps at me, if she stops for a bit, then I'll pet her and say good job. I know being separated from family is tough, so we're trying to pay attention to her and not flat out ignore her, but I feel like there's that fine line we have to find...?

 

I'm no expert on this, but we have had our puppy for about 7 weeks now (got him when he was 8 weeks old) and went through some of the same stuff it sounds like you are going through.

 

1) At night, we put the crate in our bedroom. He would cry when he first went in there, but being in the same room helped. He would cry for a little while and then fall asleep and that only lasted a couple nights. If he cried at 3 in the morning, I took him right outside and let him do his business and then he went right back in the crate (note, 7 weeks later, he still can't hold it through the night, but he really only cries in the crate now when he needs to go).

 

2) Puppy pads were worthless for us. Anytime the dog went on the pads, we praised the crap out of him... until we realized that he was going on the pads as a random accident. He just happened to be standing on them when he had to go.

 

3) Our guy was VERY afraid of other dogs and outside at first. We got him into a puppy kindergarten class and his first day there, he got in, saw the other dogs and cowered. Our instructor told us to just ignore him, let him adjust to all the other animals around him, and after a couple minutes he was fine. We treated him for going outside on his own, for going to the bathroom outside, on walks, for good interactions with people and other dogs. Now, while we still have the occassional accident, he's at ease with most other dogs (the dog across the street that barks at him scares him still) and is great with people.

 

Hope this helps...

I would put it in the room, but with as crazy as she is, we'd never sleep. I don't think it'd stop because she's still not in the bed with us, even if she's 2 feet away. I think since we started the crate being away, we might try to stick with it for now unless everyone else thinks we should switch over - but I don't think the wife would go for it.

 

Yeah, the pads have done nothing. It's worked like once and it was random too. We'll put her on there, and she just walks off towards us. Then a minute later, pees randomly somewhere. No matter how long we try to wait her out/place her on there and say go potty, it doesn't happen.

 

We haven't had any interaction with other dogs, but that's why I asked shack if it's OK for walks/go outside to try to potty train that way.

 

I did have her in the car yesterday, in the cage by myself, and she'd go nuts for 10 minutes, climb the cage, etc. Stop for a few minutes, then start again. It was insane.

[illinilaw08]

Sounds like you guys did a great job! Glad to hear he is doing so well!

 

Yeah, he's doing great. He's just a sweet tempered dog. He's a high energy breed (Vizsla) and I definitely understand the statement that "a tired dog is a well behaved dog." Like I said, we're still having the occassional accident and he hasn't yet been figured out how to tell us when he needs to go, but most of his accidents seem to come when we're playing inside and he is just having so much fun, he forgets he needs to go.

 

Best thing we have done with him is socializing the crap out of him. For example, my fiancee ran a race the other weekend, so I took the dog with. He met tons of kids, adults of all shapes and sizes, and other dogs and was just great with them.

 

One odd thing that I thought I'd share... he gets really excited when we are getting ready for a walk. He chews on the leash, tugs on the leash, tries to run off with the leash. But the second we hit the door, he's business, stops playing with the leash and ignores it for the entire walk. Given the fact that he is great when we're actually on the walk, I don't know if it's something I should even worry about. Just thought it was odd.

[IlliniKrush]

Shack, let me also add that I'm home during the day. So someone is almost home all the time. What should be the pattern here? Leave her in the main room for parts to hang out? Put in the cage for small periods of time? Otherwise I feel like again, she'll follow around and never stop. Plus, we've made the bedroom a "no dog zone" and so that's where we can get away and she can't pee on the carpet, etc. I just don't know what the plan of attack should be as far as activity.

 

We also tried to play with her a bit last night to make her tired, but she usually just comes up and tries sleeping near us, doesn't really play a ton. So that was a failure.

[iamshack]

Is she fully vaccinated yet? My guess is no, since she is only 8 weeks old. Have you gotten her into the vet yet?

 

If she's not fully vaccinated yet, I'd take her for walks, but just not the most common routes where people walk their dogs. You don't want her to pick up Parvo or something. Another option is to put her in your backpack or a duffel bag and walk around the City so she can get accustomed to the sights and sounds. This will protect her from picking anything up before she is vaccinated.

 

Did you do research on the Shichon?

 

The Shichon is a very needy dog and does not do well away from its owners. They are also very vocal and are considered to ne a yappy breed. This is because of the Bichon in them and the Bichon is directly related to the poodle. Poodles and Bichons can also be a bit nippy. So for children you have to take that into consideration that they are in this breed.

 

Shichon.net

 

Sounds like you might have an uphill battle ahead of you...

 

 

[Texsox]

Think about how evolution works though Tex. It's selection based on die-off rates. half a dozen generations may have been raised on Kibbles and Bits, but the question then is whether there's a big enough difference in die-off rates between groups eating processed food and groups eating the kind of meal Shack is advising. For it to happen in 6 generations would require a huge selective advantage towards eating processed grain based food and an appropriate mutation already existing within the population. They can't just "Get used to it" if it isn't in the gene pool already.

 

The extra food availability may be a big advantage...but it's not like dog owners are killing off dogs who don't eat that sort of diet, or deliberately attempting to breed it out.

 

I believe we are looking at dozens and dozens of generations. (Although I'm not certain the number of generations makes that big of a difference) Plus we would also have to examine the evolution of processed dog foods as a suitable food for dogs. I suspect that we will find that a wild diet is better, I'm just not certain by how much. Looking at a wild dog who has a wild diet and a wild environment. We assume we can improve the dog's life by switching it to a domestic environment. On the surface it makes sense and based on my belief that a dog does not have a very complex psyche, one I believe could be true. The dog grows up in an environment and does not have the capacity to understand the concept of wild or any other life.

 

As far as quality of life, I am looking at what is "natural" for a wild animal. Shack is preaching a "wild" diet while keeping the dog in a distinctly non wild environment. I find that a very interesting contrast. This whole concepts of humans keeping pets is fascinating to me and I am looking into what research has been done to understand why we do that. Of course there are all the symbiotic reasons that are usually mentioned, and the various psychological reasons.

[Texsox]

This is simply not true. Domesticated dogs have been eating kibble for roughly 80 years. Evolution simply does not work this quickly, Tex.

 

As to your second statement, you are doing exactly what most humans do...you are making judgments from your perspective rather than that of a dog's perspective. I know you qualified it with your next statement, but I'm not sure it is easier, to be honest.

 

From a dog's perspective does it want to be locked up in a crate or house, or running free?

[Jenksismyhero]

Is she fully vaccinated yet? My guess is no, since she is only 8 weeks old. Have you gotten her into the vet yet?

 

If she's not fully vaccinated yet, I'd take her for walks, but just not the most common routes where people walk their dogs. You don't want her to pick up Parvo or something. Another option is to put her in your backpack or a duffel bag and walk around the City so she can get accustomed to the sights and sounds. This will protect her from picking anything up before she is vaccinated.

 

Did you do research on the Shichon?

 

 

 

Shichon.net

 

Sounds like you might have an uphill battle ahead of you...

 

My sister has two of these dogs but they don't appear to be as clingy as IK's. They're about 1 or 1.5 now. I do know they still have major issues with potty training, to the point that they've decided to split them up in hopes they can give each more individual attention

 

IK, do you put a blanket over the crate? Or somehow make it more of a cave instead of a cage? Sometimes that can help, if they feel more protected. Otherwise I think you're just gonna have to deal with it for a few years until all the puppy is out of him/her.

[Texsox]

Balta, how does selective breeding factor into this? Aren't we breeding dogs that thrive in an artificial environment? Wouldn't that speed up the evolution?