The Pet Thread

[Kyyle23]

Can't stand turtles as pets. Had one, eventually realized I really didn't enjoy having to care for that one. When I left for college, parents replaced everything with neglect, think that was the last time it's tank was cleaned.

 

This one is really fairly easy to care for. Since he is a desert tortoise, when he goes to the bathroom it is almost dry already and cleans up really easy, with little to no smell. The substrate we use is crushed coconut husk, and it absorbs a lot of smell as well.

 

It is a strange little creature, it has a little personality if you watch it. Very funny to watch eat its food. Big fan of escarole, spinach, dandelion greens and grasses, not a fan of red leaf lettuce, boston lettuce, and romaine. It will push certain pieces way out of the bowl to make sure it doesn't accidentally eat what it doesn't like.

 

It is also a lot faster than you would think

[Texsox]

My answer will continue to be what is the most biologically appropriate. This isn't going to change based on whether or not he is hunting lions or sitting on the couch.

 

Think about it for a minute. A husky pulling a sled in Alaska for 12 hours, a greyhound about to run flat out for 90 seconds, and a lab sitting in a jon boat waiting for a chance to swim through cold waters to retrieve a duck, and a pocket pooch living in a high rise all have the same nutritional needs? I'm not so certain.

[iamshack]

Think about it for a minute. A husky pulling a sled in Alaska for 12 hours, a greyhound about to run flat out for 90 seconds, and a lab sitting in a jon boat waiting for a chance to swim through cold waters to retrieve a duck, and a pocket pooch living in a high rise all have the same nutritional needs? I'm not so certain.

You're not talking about caloric needs, Tex. you're talking about feeding an animal something it is not biologically equipped to digest well.

 

That would be like me feeding you old shoes or something because you're not participating in the decathalon.

 

Dogs simply do not process grains well. They also do not process carbohydrates well. This is what a large portion of cheap kibble is comprised of. Then they eat more and more trying to reach the proper levels of nutrition, and get obese and develop allergies.

 

What you're trying to argue is that their caloric needs might vary. I can buy that. But whether or not they will need proper nourishment will not vary.

Edited April 11, 2012 by iamshack

[Texsox]

You're not talking about caloric needs, Tex. you're talking about feeding an animal something it is not biologically equipped to digest well.

 

That would be like me feeding you old shoes or something because you're not participating in the decathalon.

 

Dogs simply do not process grains well. They also do not process carbohydrates well. This is what a large portion of cheap kibble is comprised of. Then they eat more and more trying to reach the proper levels of nutrition, and get obese and develop allergies.

 

What you're trying to argue is that their caloric needs might vary. I can buy that. But whether or not they will need proper nourishment will not vary.

 

I am talking about fuels for a long, slow exertion compared to fuels for a short burst of energy or for no exertion of all. It's your position that the same food is correct in each of those cases, I'm not so certain. And from what I've read from trainers of greyhounds and sled dogs they each have special diets they place their dogs that they have found to work best. And again I will quickly and easily concede that there are some very poor dog foods out there that are not very good for dogs.

[iamshack]

I am talking about fuels for a long, slow exertion compared to fuels for a short burst of energy or for no exertion of all. It's your position that the same food is correct in each of those cases, I'm not so certain. And from what I've read from trainers of greyhounds and sled dogs they each have special diets they place their dogs that they have found to work best. And again I will quickly and easily concede that there are some very poor dog foods out there that are not very good for dogs.

Ok...but none of those diets includes grains and carbs heat pressed into pellets...

 

It's like you suggesting it's alright to eat pop tarts instead of fresh fish because fresh fish may not be ideal for a high jumper...

 

Yes, some protein sources are better than others. Some people think some vegetables have important nutrients or form combinations with nutrients in meat that deliver better results than without...but 99% of all dry kibble isn't even in the same stratosphere as even the worst raw protein sources.

[EvilJester99]

We had to switch our dogs to a Grain free diet... its more expensive but due to severe allergies it was required.

[IlliniKrush]

So...anyway...looks like I missed a lot here today. Here's the little one:

 

Edited April 11, 2012 by IlliniKrush

[iamshack]

So...anyway...looks like I missed a lot here today. Here's the little one:

 

Is she getting any better?

[IlliniKrush]

The attachment issues, at least when in the same room, are better. She can lay around on the floor, play with a toy, and not have to be on top of us all the time (still follows sometimes though, but getting more independent). However, if we put her in her crate, or even in the guest bathroom where the crate is if we are gone, still goes bats*** crazy. She seems to give up the whining in a shorter time frame, but not by much.

 

Has used the potty pads a few times on her own, we figured out the general area she likes to go and put them there.

 

Overall, pretty good progress the last 2 days.

[Texsox]

Ok...but none of those diets includes grains and carbs heat pressed into pellets...

 

It's like you suggesting it's alright to eat pop tarts instead of fresh fish because fresh fish may not be ideal for a high jumper...

 

Yes, some protein sources are better than others. Some people think some vegetables have important nutrients or form combinations with nutrients in meat that deliver better results than without...but 99% of all dry kibble isn't even in the same stratosphere as even the worst raw protein sources.

 

If you want me to agree that there are terrible man made foods, I already did that a long time ago.

But it really means about as much as if I mention feeding a dog a raw diet of road kill that has been sitting in the sun for 24 hours.

[iamshack]

If you want me to agree that there are terrible man made foods, I already did that a long time ago.

But it really means about as much as if I mention feeding a dog a raw diet of road kill that has been sitting in the sun for 24 hours.

No, see, this is what you're not seeing!

 

That roadkill IS a better meal for the dog than a bowl of food you might get at your local grocery store!

 

The reason is because dogs have evolved to digest a meal such as roadkill over tens of thousands of years, most likely more. Regardless of how disgusting it is to you and I, a dog's stomach is equipped to break down that roadkill in its stomach and then its very short intestinal system. The bacteria that would put you and I in the hospital for weeks wouldn't so much as phase our dogs. The dog's gastrointestinal system would much more efficiently process that meat and bones of a dead squirrel roasting in the sun than a bag of Purina you got from Sam's Club.

 

Again, for an analogy, it would be like saying I shouldn't eat leftover salmon from yesterday at the restaurant because it isn't super fresh, so I should eat a 2 pound bag of skittles instead.

 

 

[Texsox]

No, see, this is what you're not seeing!

 

That roadkill IS a better meal for the dog than a bowl of food you might get at your local grocery store!

 

The reason is because dogs have evolved to digest a meal such as roadkill over tens of thousands of years, most likely more. Regardless of how disgusting it is to you and I, a dog's stomach is equipped to break down that roadkill in its stomach and then its very short intestinal system. The bacteria that would put you and I in the hospital for weeks wouldn't so much as phase our dogs. The dog's gastrointestinal system would much more efficiently process that meat and bones of a dead squirrel roasting in the sun than a bag of Purina you got from Sam's Club.

 

Again, for an analogy, it would be like saying I shouldn't eat leftover salmon from yesterday at the restaurant because it isn't super fresh, so I should eat a 2 pound bag of skittles instead.

 

OK, then how is locking them inside crates and homes better for them? If they are better off as wild animals, what are we doing by keeping them as pets?

[iamshack]

OK, then how is locking them inside crates and homes better for them? If they are better off as wild animals, what are we doing by keeping them as pets?

This an entirely different argument, Tex...you're trying to equate behavioral/environmental changes to feeding them a substandard diet based on their biological equipment. It's simply not a good analogy.

 

If you want to get into whether the domestication of dogs was good or bad for the species, you can look at the plight of the wolf and other wild animals in North America...I think the dog is probably a pretty lucky animal to have been domesticated and incorporated into our lifestyle, rather than trying to compete with us for resources to maintain their own.

 

And even if we were to concede that domesticating dogs was bad for the species in general, how would that somehow justify feeding them a s***ty diet?

Edited April 11, 2012 by iamshack

[Texsox]

This an entirely different argument, Tex...you're trying to equate behavioral/environmental changes to feeding them a substandard diet based on their biological equipment. It's simply not a good analogy.

 

If you want to get into whether the domestication of dogs was good or bad for the species, you can look at the plight of the wolf and other wild animals in North America...I think the dog is probably a pretty lucky animal to have been domesticated and incorporated into our lifestyle, rather than trying to compete with us for resources to maintain their own.

 

And even if we were to concede that domesticating dogs was bad for the species in general, how would that somehow justify feeding them a s***ty diet?

 

What I am trying to equate is on one hand we are saying they are wild animals, then we lock them up. You want to split apart their digestive tract from the rest of the animal. Let's put the animal back together and make it whole.

 

The best food is for the dog to hunt, as a pack,and catch prey and eat the whole thing. Anything humans do to remove them from that social and digestive process is not ultimate for the animal. You pay a lot of attention to the dog's digestive tract and psyche. But even as careful as you are, you are many steps away from the wild ideal. How large of a territory would a Great Dane roam during the course of a day? How often would they be confined?

 

I agreed a very long time ago that the very worst of human produced food is bad for them. But I believe the very best isn't any further away from the ideal diet than locking a dog up is from their social and physical ideal.

[iamshack]

What I am trying to equate is on one hand we are saying they are wild animals, then we lock them up. You want to split apart their digestive tract from the rest of the animal. Let's put the animal back together and make it whole.

 

The best food is for the dog to hunt, as a pack,and catch prey and eat the whole thing. Anything humans do to remove them from that social and digestive process is not ultimate for the animal. You pay a lot of attention to the dog's digestive tract and psyche. But even as careful as you are, you are many steps away from the wild ideal. How large of a territory would a Great Dane roam during the course of a day? How often would they be confined?

 

I agreed a very long time ago that the very worst of human produced food is bad for them. But I believe the very best isn't any further away from the ideal diet than locking a dog up is from their social and physical ideal.

Tex,

I don't want to separate their digestive system from the rest of the animal. What I do is control what I can control. Long, long ago, some people decided to domesticate what we now know as the canine. Domesticated dogs now live beside us, often times in our homes, even share our beds (for some owners). We trust them to protect our belongings and sometimes even our family members.

 

Whether they are truly happier as a collective species, I couldn't begin to answer. Are there dogs who absolutely adore the role they play within a human family unit? Absolutely, Tex...and we can say that with absolute certainty. For many dogs, living amongst a human family is not much different than living amongst a pack of dogs. He learns his position among the pack and dutifully fulfills that role.

 

I understand the question you're asking and generally what you're getting at here. I cannot begin to answer it, nor proclaim to be an expert on the sum positives and negatives of domesticating an entire species.

 

Irregardless, that doesn't change the scientific fact that dogs process certain foods more efficiently than others, and it is ideal to feed them those they process most efficiently.

 

What other answer could one possibly reach?

 

Should we feed them a substandard diet because they are no longer out in the wild hunting deer or boar or sheep? How does that accomplish anything?

 

Could I do other things that the dog might enjoy doing that utilize some of it's biological leanings? Sure...and I try...I take my dogs hiking...they've been in the Redwood forests, they've run along the Pacific Ocean, they've slept in tents outdoors with me, they've run in the mountains and the snow...I take them to the park several times a week to run off-leash with other dogs, and yet they still get the run of the house and the best possible food I can afford for them.

 

Would they be happier in some other life? I suspect so...but I do the best I can...

Edited April 11, 2012 by iamshack

[Texsox]

And I hope I was clear that I respect all you do as a pet owner.

[ChiliIrishHammock24]

I think my brother is going to bring his puppy with him to my school this weekend. Pretty excited to see her again. It's going to be weird for her not being able to eat and drink whenever she wants though. Sucks to take that option away from her, but oh well, it's only for a couple days.

[iamshack]

I think my brother is going to bring his puppy with him to my school this weekend. Pretty excited to see her again. It's going to be weird for her not being able to eat and drink whenever she wants though. Sucks to take that option away from her, but oh well, it's only for a couple days.

Why do you insist on talking about this nonsense every chance you get?

 

Honestly, I don't think you've found one other person here that believes this to be a good idea.

[ChiliIrishHammock24]

Why do you insist on talking about this nonsense every chance you get?

 

Honestly, I don't think you've found one other person here that believes this to be a good idea.

 

I'm just wondering how she is going to react to it. She has never had to be hungry before. It will be an interesting experience to observe.

[Texsox]

Why do you insist on talking about this nonsense every chance you get?

 

Honestly, I don't think you've found one other person here that believes this to be a good idea.

 

I don't find it objectionable. I know plenty of hunting camps that feed their dogs this way and it seems to work. I especially like the never ending supply of water. I was usually concerned about cleanliness of the container, but that concern is probably overblown.

[iamshack]

I don't find it objectionable. I know plenty of hunting camps that feed their dogs this way and it seems to work. I especially like the never ending supply of water. I was usually concerned about cleanliness of the container, but that concern is probably overblown.

A constant supply of water is always a good thing.

 

I don't really care how Joe or his family wants to feed their dogs. It obviously works out for all of them.

 

The issue comes in when you are recommending this to others. It simply is not a good idea, for many, many reasons, Tex. I've alluded to the way a dog's gastro system works many, many times now. Because of the way dogs evolved as hunters, as well as the scarcity of prey, a dog's gastro system is biologically equipped to handle large meals seldomly rather than a constant influx of food. The stomach of a dog is much different than our stomachs. Our stomach is designed to have food constantly seeping through it into our intestines. A dog's stomach is designed to almost completely digest the food itself. Because of all the difficult work it does, it needs adequate time to rest. And when it rests, the liver begins to transform fat to carbohydrates. When a dog is eating several times a day, it's stomach cannot rest, and the liver will actually lose this functionality. This functionality of the liver allows the dog to truly perform at optimal levels, especially on an empty stomach.

 

Honestly, everyone can care for their dogs however they please. But it irks me when people recommend things that are actually harmful.

[Kyyle23]

Joe, stop baiting. Shack, stop taking the bait.

 

You guys disagree. Its over.

[iamshack]

Joe, stop baiting. Shack, stop taking the bait.

 

You guys disagree. Its over.

It's a civil disagreement.

[Kyyle23]

It's a civil disagreement.

 

 

That has run 27 pages now. Let's talk about our pets, not Joes way of taking care of his. We know your stances on the issue. Shack takes the hands on, joe takes the hands off. The recommendations have been made from both sides. The public is aware.

 

 

[iamshack]

That has run 27 pages now. Let's talk about our pets, not Joes way of taking care of his. We know your stances on the issue. Shack takes the hands on, joe takes the hands off. The recommendations have been made from both sides. The public is aware.

Ok, I promise I will stop telling Joe he is wrong when you stop telling Greg775 he is wrong...