2012-2013 NFL Thread

[Dick Allen]

I wouldnt say Gannon and Johnson were ho hum before Gruden got to them. They both were pretty good QBs, he just took them to another level.

 

Bruce Gradkowski was never at their level at any point. Jeff Garcia was on his last legs.

 

I know his record after a good run wasnt that great, and i dont want to get into a long meaningless argument with you right now, but you are discrediting him far too much.

Johnson was around for a couple of years after he won the SB. Brian Griese had a decent year there as did Chris Simms one season. His last 6 seasons after the SB win were bad. He did make the playoffs twice but lost in the first round both times. He also was under .500 several times. Every criticism that can be laid on Lovie in the 6 years since the Bears went to the SB can be said about Gruden during his last 6 years in Tampa. If Lovie ignored the offense, then if Gruden thinks he can win with Gradkowski, or Garcia on his last legs as you put it, he was ignoring reality as well. Why would this be any different? If Emery is in charge of the personnel, how come Lovie is getting blamed for the lack of talent on the offensive line?

[GoSox05]

@AdamSchefter

 

From @mortreport and me: Chiefs on verge of a deal with Andy Reid. One source said “the major issues have been discussed and agreed upon.”

[Balta1701]

If Emery is in charge of the personnel, how come Lovie is getting blamed for the lack of talent on the offensive line?

The offensive staff went into last season saying they could make the O-line work, that the problem was in no small part that Martz's system put the linemen on islands alone, with no help. Frankly, this is not incorrect. Pay attention to the O-Line in a New Orleans game, and every single play there is a TE or RB who gives a chip or provides a 2nd block on the defenses best pass rusher. That's how they keep Brees clean and upright, and the Martz offense never ever ever did that, because that RB and TE needed to be moving down the field. That offense might still work when you have Orlando Pace in his prime at LT, but it was killing Cutler. Furthermore, you can also help the Line with playcalling; adding in slants, quick throws, screens, rollouts away from the line to break up the pass rush, draw plays, etc.

 

So, Tice kept saying they could make this O-Line work if they had a better system. By the time the first Packers game rolled around, it was clear that not a single thing had changed. Every single play, either Webb or Carimi was faced up on an island against Matthews, and he did what will happen any time you put Clay Matthews singled up against any lineman and then try to throw the ball down the field every play. The QB got killed. No rollouts, no quick slants or in routes, crappy screen game, never ever any help delivered from a chip on the side of the rusher, and that just kept going.

 

A better system, actually doing what their own words said they'd do, might have legitimately helped, but it was never tried. I don't know who to hang that on. Jay Cutler may just really, really like throwing the ball down the field. Tice and Lovie may simply not have heard the words spoken by Tice and Lovie. They may have changed their plans for some reason during TC. Emery may have legitimately made a mistake in having confidence in Carimi, who was Omiyale bad in pass protection this year. But I have zero trouble hanging a ton of blame on Tice and Lovie for the state of the O-line and protection this year. Their own words explained how they'd do better...and that was out the window by game 1.

[Kyyle23]

Johnson was around for a couple of years after he won the SB. Brian Griese had a decent year there as did Chris Simms one season. His last 6 seasons after the SB win were bad. He did make the playoffs twice but lost in the first round both times. He also was under .500 several times. Every criticism that can be laid on Lovie in the 6 years since the Bears went to the SB can be said about Gruden during his last 6 years in Tampa. If Lovie ignored the offense, then if Gruden thinks he can win with Gradkowski, or Garcia on his last legs as you put it, he was ignoring reality as well. Why would this be any different? If Emery is in charge of the personnel, how come Lovie is getting blamed for the lack of talent on the offensive line?

 

Emery had nothing to do with the Offensive line currently assembled. NOTHING. As he said in his press conference, according to stats inc, not one OL in last years draft graded out higher than anyone in this years offensive line, so it isnt as if he could have drafted a savior and fixed it in one season.

 

 

Look, you dont like Gruden. I get it. His first 5 years were far better than his last 6. The end.

[ChiSox_Sonix]

@AdamSchefter

 

From @mortreport and me: Chiefs on verge of a deal with Andy Reid. One source said “the major issues have been discussed and agreed upon.”

 

I will be ecstatic if this goes through. Would be our best coach since Schottenheimer

[Kyyle23]

I wonder if Pioli has his bags packed

[StrangeSox]

rushing attempts =! using your feet to avoid pressure

yup

[iamshack]

Just looked through the stats. Cutler had 66% as many rushing attempts as Andrew Luck and Christian Ponder, 75% as many as Rodgers, and the same number as Jake Locker, who missed 5 games. His rushing attempts are also similar to guys like Sam Bradford, Josh Freeman, Matthew Stafford.

 

Cutler is more effective at getting yards per attempt than the latter names on those lists, but he's not getting out of the pocket and running nearly as much as "Mobile" QB's, particularly given the number of broken plays his line gave him.

Well one of the things I have never really understood about our offensive playcalling is why we don't ever seem to be able to 1) call a slant or 2) execute a slant successfully. Green Bay runs a crapload of slants and other quick inside crossing routes that allow Rodgers to get rid of the ball quickly. They also roll him out quite a bit more than the Bears roll Cutler out. Now it's pretty clear that Rodgers is better on the run than Cutler (and probably the best in the League, honestly), but we just never seemed to call the offensive game according to the limitations of our offensive line (outside of that Dallas game last year and maybe a few other instances I am not recalling).

 

So I agree with your general point, but I don't think that is a Cutler issue, as he has shown a really incredible ability to avoid pressure within the pocket and he has shown he can really be athletic when he gets outside of the pocket. I think it is more of a failure of our coaching staff to design and/or call the correct plays to try and deal with a subpar offensive line.

[Dick Allen]

Emery had nothing to do with the Offensive line currently assembled. NOTHING. As he said in his press conference, according to stats inc, not one OL in last years draft graded out higher than anyone in this years offensive line, so it isnt as if he could have drafted a savior and fixed it in one season.

 

 

Look, you dont like Gruden. I get it. His first 5 years were far better than his last 6. The end.

I just find it funny for all the people who blast Lovie's record look at Gruden and see something totally different when after he won the SB with a roster he had little in constructing, he was a below average coach (45-51) with zero playoff wins, and the excuse they use for Gruden's failure is Gruden himself. Top that off with he's been out of the game 4 years, it doesn't seem like a guy you would want to throw millions at unless you want to make fans happy because the guy spazzes out on the sideline. And it's not like he would sign on as a head coach and have less of a say in personnel decisions than Lovie and Mike Tice did, something that people point out was his downfall.

[Kyyle23]

I just find it funny for all the people who blast Lovie's record look at Gruden and see something totally different when after he won the SB with a roster he had little in constructing, he was a below average coach (45-51) with zero playoff wins, and the excuse they use for Gruden's failure is Gruden himself. Top that off with he's been out of the game 4 years, it doesn't seem like a guy you would want to throw millions at unless you want to make fans happy because the guy spazzes out on the sideline. And it's not like he would sign on as a head coach and have less of a say in personnel decisions than Lovie and Mike Tice did, something that people point out was his downfall.

 

Who is blasting Lovies record here Dick? It was time for Lovie to go, he left with almost a +20 W/L, but was not getting to the playoffs.

 

Ok, lets do this, instead of you complaining about what other people want for head coach, who do YOU want?

[GoSox05]

I wonder if Pioli has his bags packed

 

 

@JasonLaCanfora: If Andy Reid does end up talking only to the Chiefs and taking that job, GM Scott Pioli will be out

[Dick Allen]

Who is blasting Lovies record here Dick? It was time for Lovie to go, he left with almost a +20 W/L, but was not getting to the playoffs.

 

Ok, lets do this, instead of you complaining about what other people want for head coach, who do YOU want?

Holmgren. The goal stated was to be a consistent playoff contender. He was constantly in the playoffs in 2 places. I have no idea if he would even consider the Bears, and wonder if he still has the energy at his age to tackle the job, but he has the best track record. Personally, if the Bears were serious about winning next year, IMO, their best shot was to keep Lovie one more season. I think record-wise, no matter who is hired, there will probably be a step back next season.

 

If they are going with a coordinator, I'd go with Kyle Shannahan.

[Kyyle23]

Holmgrens record looks remarkably Gruden-like after leaving the Packers if you factor in the last 3 years of Browns fail

[daa84]

Well one of the things I have never really understood about our offensive playcalling is why we don't ever seem to be able to 1) call a slant or 2) execute a slant successfully. Green Bay runs a crapload of slants and other quick inside crossing routes that allow Rodgers to get rid of the ball quickly. They also roll him out quite a bit more than the Bears roll Cutler out. Now it's pretty clear that Rodgers is better on the run than Cutler (and probably the best in the League, honestly), but we just never seemed to call the offensive game according to the limitations of our offensive line (outside of that Dallas game last year and maybe a few other instances I am not recalling).

 

So I agree with your general point, but I don't think that is a Cutler issue, as he has shown a really incredible ability to avoid pressure within the pocket and he has shown he can really be athletic when he gets outside of the pocket. I think it is more of a failure of our coaching staff to design and/or call the correct plays to try and deal with a subpar offensive line.

no doubt that some of these offensive issues are what plagued the bears this year. for the past 3 years the bears have run offensive schemes that simply require good pass blocking from the offensive line. Both Martz's offense and Tice's were predicated on a more vertical passing game, down the field, deeper drop backs. for an team with a bad offensive line, there must be adaptability in using the quick hitter to the middle of the field (and emery said as much in his press conference). The only time I really recall the play calling changing in favor of quick 3 step drops is the Dallas game when they had Omiyale playing LT, then Martz went back to his old ways.

 

[Dick Allen]

Holmgrens record looks remarkably Gruden-like after leaving the Packers if you factor in the last 3 years of Browns fail

He wasn't coaching. He made the playoffs 6 times in Seattle. Went to the SB. Put it this way, Gruden's last 6 years coaching produced 5 more wins and one less playoff win than Dave Wannstedt's 6 years coaching the Bears.

Edited January 3, 2013 by Dick Allen

[Kyyle23]

no doubt that some of these offensive issues are what plagued the bears this year. for the past 3 years the bears have run offensive schemes that simply require good pass blocking from the offensive line. Both Martz's offense and Tice's were predicated on a more vertical passing game, down the field, deeper drop backs. for an team with a bad offensive line, there must be adaptability in using the quick hitter to the middle of the field (and emery said as much in his press conference). The only time I really recall the play calling changing in favor of quick 3 step drops is the Dallas game when they had Omiyale playing LT, then Martz went back to his old ways.

 

IIRC, that Dallas game took a turn for the better when Cutler hit a couple quick slants over the middle that made the defense stop pinning their ears back

[iamshack]

no doubt that some of these offensive issues are what plagued the bears this year. for the past 3 years the bears have run offensive schemes that simply require good pass blocking from the offensive line. Both Martz's offense and Tice's were predicated on a more vertical passing game, down the field, deeper drop backs. for an team with a bad offensive line, there must be adaptability in using the quick hitter to the middle of the field (and emery said as much in his press conference). The only time I really recall the play calling changing in favor of quick 3 step drops is the Dallas game when they had Omiyale playing LT, then Martz went back to his old ways.

Yep, we are remembering the exact same thing.

[GoSox05]

Mike Holmgren as just a coach and nothing more would be pretty good. He has been awful at making personal choices.

 

He might be a little too old to deal with Cutler.

[daa84]

Yep, we are remembering the exact same thing.

ha, I completely missed that in your original post. we are on the exact same wavelength

 

if you ask me, the stubborn minded offensive coordinators lovie has had is what did him in - they were incapable/unwilling to adapt, and simply wanted to run their own system, which frankly didn't work. I know Lovie's philosophy defensively is "we are going to do what we do" , and while that philosophy worked for the D, it certainly didn't (and IMO can't) on offense. need to be able to change based on what the opponent is doing, and based on your own personnel

Edited January 3, 2013 by daa84

[Chisoxfn]

Holmgren. The goal stated was to be a consistent playoff contender. He was constantly in the playoffs in 2 places. I have no idea if he would even consider the Bears, and wonder if he still has the energy at his age to tackle the job, but he has the best track record. Personally, if the Bears were serious about winning next year, IMO, their best shot was to keep Lovie one more season. I think record-wise, no matter who is hired, there will probably be a step back next season.

 

If they are going with a coordinator, I'd go with Kyle Shannahan.

Dick...Holmgren (along with Reid) are my top candidates. Shanny is probably my top coordinator candidate.

[bmags]

I just can't get past the last 6 years of Grudens career. If he wants to prove himself again I'm not so sure he gets to hop onto a head coaching job right away, at least not in the pros.

[Chisoxfn]

I just can't get past the last 6 years of Grudens career. If he wants to prove himself again I'm not so sure he gets to hop onto a head coaching job right away, at least not in the pros.

The offensive mindset I really like but I too have a lot of memories of how he failed in Tampa. He is my least favorite of the polished head coaches that are available (which is my preferred route).

[Chisoxfn]

I forgot, I really like O'Brien too.

[Kyyle23]

One thing you can say, Emery is casting a wide net. Every day you hear new names mentioned being called in for interviews. Exciting to say the least

[Dick Allen]

One thing you can say, Emery is casting a wide net. Every day you hear new names mentioned being called in for interviews. Exciting to say the least

He probably had an idea of his top choices before he starting interviewing people, but more interviews are only for the better. Maybe someone he considered a longshot blows him away.