2012-2013 NFL Thread

[ptatc]

Lovie was a linebacker coach at Tampa when Tampa was bad to average. And St. Louis didn't win because of defense. He made them better, but they weren't winning because of defensive touchdowns. Not sure how his prior coaching is relevant. Anyone who objectively looks at some of the defense plays made over the course of Lovie's career has to chalk it up as luck. I'm sorry, but winning games with Mike Brown interceptions for touchdowns or Hester returns for touchdowns is fluky. I'm not saying Lovie shouldn't get credit - he's a great defensive coach who has had/drafted/coached up good defensive players. But the his winning percentage is probably 10-15 wins (or more) too high if you take away some of the lucky plays. Calvin Johnson's bogus non-TD call last year, the late TD interception against the Panthers this year, etc.

When it happens on a consistent basis with Brown, Hester, and Tillman, it isn't luck. It's a mindset he instilled in the players on how to attack players. It's just unfortunate that he basically ignored the offense and always tried to make it too conservative. This is on him and is why he had to be fired.

 

Reminds me of Buddy Ryan, a really good defensive mind but discounted the offense why too much. At least Lovie didn't attack his OC on the sidelines.

Edited January 4, 2013 by ptatc

[Jenksismyhero]

There is nothing about Jon Gruden's coaching record that says anyone should want him. People just see him on tv and drool and say "give me" because they are familiar.

 

I think bringing back a terrible Raiders franchise, making them a top team in the AFC and a superbowl contender, and then beating that team with another team he coached is pretty impressive. Overrated? Probably. But still good.

[Dick Allen]

Lovie was a linebacker coach at Tampa when Tampa was bad to average. And St. Louis didn't win because of defense. He made them better, but they weren't winning because of defensive touchdowns. Not sure how his prior coaching is relevant. Anyone who objectively looks at some of the defense plays made over the course of Lovie's career has to chalk it up as luck. I'm sorry, but winning games with Mike Brown interceptions for touchdowns or Hester returns for touchdowns is fluky. I'm not saying Lovie shouldn't get credit - he's a great defensive coach who has had/drafted/coached up good defensive players. But the his winning percentage is probably 10-15 wins (or more) too high if you take away some of the lucky plays. Calvin Johnson's bogus non-TD call last year, the late TD interception against the Panthers this year, etc.

When it happens year after year after year, it is not a fluke.

[chw42]

They are both guys who haven't lived up to the hype. Find the thread the day the Bears traded for Cutler. The results haven't been what a lot of people thought. And just like in Jay's mind and the Sherriff's mind, it's probably everyone else's fault but their's.

 

What did people really expect? They traded for a guy coming off a year where he had a 86 QB rating. Cutler's QB rating as a Bears QB? 81.9 and that's with a really bad offensive line and a horrible receiving corps 3 of the last 4 years. But with the history of the Bears, anybody would have killed for a QB that can consistently put up a QB rating near 85. Because we've constantly dealt with worse.

 

Outside of the bad games against GB the last three years, can you really say that Cutler's been awful? The Bears won at a .675 clip with him since 2010 and they were a wreck without him. That alone should tell you that he's doing something right.

Edited January 4, 2013 by chw42

[chw42]

Rex Ryan has a tattoo of his wife wearing only a Mark Sanchez jersey

 

So Mark Sanchez is staying in NY?

[Dick Allen]

I think bringing back a terrible Raiders franchise, making them a top team in the AFC and a superbowl contender, and then beating that team with another team he coached is pretty impressive. Overrated? Probably. But still good.

What about the last 6 years of his career, was he just "unlucky". Jon Gruden hasn't won a playoff game in 10 years.

[Jenksismyhero]

When it happens on a consistent basis with Brown, Hester, and Tillman, it isn't luck. It's a mindset he instilled in the players on how to attack players. It's just unfortunate that he basically ignored the offense and always tried to make it too conservative. This is on him and is why he had to be fired.

 

Every other team emphasizes turnovers. Every other team tries to turnover the ball and return kicks/punts for touchdowns. Lovie just happened to have maybe the best special teams coach ever, the best return man ever, and some really good defensive players. But good defensive players don't magically cause stupid QB's to throw terrible pick-6's.

 

[Dick Allen]

What did people really expect? They traded for a guy coming off a year where he had a 86 QB rating. Cutler's QB rating as a Bears QB? 81.9 and that's with a really bad offensive line and a horrible receiving corps 3 of the last 4 years. But with the history of the Bears, anybody would have killed for a QB that can consistently put up a QB rating near 85. Because we've constantly dealt with worse.

 

Outside of the bad games against GB the last three years, can you really say that Cutler's been awful? The Bears won at a .675 clip with him since 2010 and they were a wreck without him. That alone should tell you that he's doing something right.

Most teams do a lot better with their starter than their back up. I never said he was awful, he's just not anywhere near elite. Blame everything else. That's what Jay would do, and if he's awful vs. GB, if that's reason enough to criticize Lovie, it should be reason enough to let Cutler have it.

Edited January 4, 2013 by Dick Allen

[StrangeSox]

Every other team emphasizes turnovers. Every other team tries to turnover the ball and return kicks/punts for touchdowns. Lovie just happened to have maybe the best special teams coach ever, the best return man ever, and some really good defensive players. But good defensive players don't magically cause stupid QB's to throw terrible pick-6's.

 

Every other team emphasizes those things, but few if any other teams have produced nearly as consistently at those things as the Lovie Smith-coached Bears have.

[Jenksismyhero]

What about the last 6 years of his career, was he just "unlucky". Jon Gruden hasn't won a playoff game in 10 years.

 

No, I think his hall of fame defensive players got old and Tampa gave up a ton to get Gruden so they couldn't draft good players going forward. I admit he took over a really good defensive team that Dungy built, but he did make them a better offensive team and still was able to get them to the playoffs. If Lovie could have gotten his offense to be even average over the last 9 years the Bears would have been in the Superbowl a few times.

[Kyyle23]

Every other team emphasizes turnovers. Every other team tries to turnover the ball and return kicks/punts for touchdowns. Lovie just happened to have maybe the best special teams coach ever, the best return man ever, and some really good defensive players. But good defensive players don't magically cause stupid QB's to throw terrible pick-6's.

 

LOL. You wont give Lovie any credit for anything. At least you are consistent with that. He wasnt the best coach ever, but he was definitely above average

[Kyyle23]

Most teams do a lot better with their starter than their back up. I never said he was awful, he's just not anywhere near elite. Blame everything else. That's what Jay would do, and if he's awful vs. GB, if that's reason enough to criticize Lovie, it should be reason enough to let Cutler have it.

 

You say that as if Cutler never has been criticized for his play against GB

[Dick Allen]

No, I think his hall of fame defensive players got old and Tampa gave up a ton to get Gruden so they couldn't draft good players going forward. I admit he took over a really good defensive team that Dungy built, but he did make them a better offensive team and still was able to get them to the playoffs. If Lovie could have gotten his offense to be even average over the last 9 years the Bears would have been in the Superbowl a few times.

Gruden's offenses in TB his last 6 years ranked closer to the bottom than the top of the league.

[Dick Allen]

You say that as if Cutler never has been criticized for his play against GB

I say it as Cutler is one Bear who is coddled by the fans. Face it, the guy has struggled in big games, and his leadership up until this point in his career, has to be questioned. The QB is the focal point of every team. He needs to grow up. Maybe having a kid and a new offense will do that, but he is Jeff George right now.

[Jenksismyhero]

Every other team emphasizes those things, but few if any other teams have produced nearly as consistently at those things as the Lovie Smith-coached Bears have.

 

I can't find rankings by defensive scores, but the Bears are one of several teams that have been consistently good at takeaways. They're not a far and away better team though.

 

http://www.teamrankings.com/nfl/stat/takeaways-per-game

[Jenksismyhero]

LOL. You wont give Lovie any credit for anything. At least you are consistent with that. He wasnt the best coach ever, but he was definitely above average

 

How is a .560 winning percentage and playoff appearances 3 times in 9 years, going 3-3, "above average?" He was a good defensive coach and a f***ing horrendous offensive coach. That's indisputable. How can you just ignore half of his job?

Edited January 4, 2013 by Jenksismybitch

[Kyyle23]

I say it as Cutler is one Bear who is coddled by the fans. Face it, the guy has struggled in big games, and his leadership up until this point in his career, has to be questioned. The QB is the focal point of every team. He needs to grow up. Maybe having a kid and a new offense will do that, but he is Jeff George right now.

 

WTF? Are you serious?

[Jenksismyhero]

Gruden's offenses in TB his last 6 years ranked closer to the bottom than the top of the league.

 

I am not in anyway saying the Bears should go after Gruden or that he's the best coach available. I'm just saying what he did with the Raiders and Tampa is proof that he's not a terrible coach.

[Kyyle23]

How is a sub .560 winning percentage and playoff appearances 3 times in 9 years, going 3-3, "above average?" He was a good defensive coach and a f***ing horrendous offensive coach. That's indisputable. How can you just ignore half of his job?

 

Nothing I will say will change your mind. You already think everything he does is based on luck and flukes. Why bother arguing with you?

 

I never said he was the best ever, but he is above average

[Jenksismyhero]

Nothing I will say will change your mind. You already think everything he does is based on luck and flukes. Why bother arguing with you?

 

I never said he was the best ever, but he is above average

 

It won't change my mind, I just want to know how you can label him as above average given the results over the last 9 years.

[Kyyle23]

It won't change my mind, I just want to know how you can label him as above average given the results over the last 9 years.

 

And I would like to know how you can discredit his entire defense as being lucky and based on flukes.

[Dick Allen]

It won't change my mind, I just want to know how you can label him as above average given the results over the last 9 years.

Considering Gruden was 45-51 his last 6 years and you called him a good coach, I'd consider a 9-7 average record per season for 9 years with a SB appearance above average.

[southsider2k5]

How is a .560 winning percentage and playoff appearances 3 times in 9 years, going 3-3, "above average?" He was a good defensive coach and a f***ing horrendous offensive coach. That's indisputable. How can you just ignore half of his job?

 

By its very definition...

[Kyyle23]

By its very definition...

 

the new .500 is .560

[southsider2k5]

I say it as Cutler is one Bear who is coddled by the fans. Face it, the guy has struggled in big games, and his leadership up until this point in his career, has to be questioned. The QB is the focal point of every team. He needs to grow up. Maybe having a kid and a new offense will do that, but he is Jeff George right now.

 

 

By those standards the offensive line is coddled by the fans too.