2012-2013 NFL Thread

[Balta1701]

But shouldn't that rate be higher given the fact that NFL players suffer concussions at a much higher rate than the general populace? Conclusions are being drawn.

The study though is comparing NFL players to NFL players and then those 2 groups to the general populace afterwards.

[flippedoutpunk]

In the case of 3 or more concussions, the depression rate triples.

 

in 20.2 percent of 595 cases, not 100 percent.

[Steve9347]

A 2000 study surveyed 1,090 former N.F.L. players and found more than 60 percent had suffered at least one concussion in their careers and 26 percent had had three or more. Those who had had concussions reported more problems with memory, concentration, speech impediments, headaches and other neurological problems than those who had not, the survey found.

 

60 percent of NFL players = concussions. That has to be exponentially larger than the general population - yet the depression rate is the same? Tell me more please.

[Balta1701]

in 20.2 percent of 595 cases, not 100 percent.

When it should be 6.75%, 20.2% is a gigantic increase, well outside of any reasonable margin of error.

[Steve9347]

(arguing against Steve's point that it's all about NFL players leaving the sport).

uh - my point is that there could be many factors for depression, and the bandwagon to jump on ANY FOOTBALL PLAYER THAT KILLS HIMSELF HAS CTE AND DID SO BECAUSE OF IT is stupid, and I certainly look forward to Seau's autopsy findings.

[Balta1701]

uh - my point is that there could be many factors for depression, and the bandwagon to jump on ANY FOOTBALL PLAYER THAT KILLS HIMSELF HAS CTE AND DID SO BECAUSE OF IT is stupid, and I certainly look forward to Seau's autopsy findings.

Why?

 

By your own standard, finding significant brain damage would be unimportant.

[Steve9347]

Why?

 

By your own standard, finding significant brain damage would be unimportant.

You are so black & white it's ridiculous. Stick to rocks.

[Soxbadger]

ANY FOOTBALL PLAYER THAT KILLS HIMSELF HAS CTE AND DID SO BECAUSE OF IT is stupid

 

No one has said this.

 

You said that it was bulls***, dont backtrack now, stand by your statement.

 

 

[flippedoutpunk]

When it should be 6.75%, 20.2% is a gigantic increase, well outside of any reasonable margin of error.

 

yes 20.2 percent is a large increase, but i just don't think its safe to make definitive statements that insinuate that every single person with 3 or more concussions will have triple the rate of depression, when the study said 20.2 percent of 595 people that were interviewed had triple the depression rate.

[Steve9347]

I would like to add that I do not believe you should stick to rocks, it's just annoying to be misunderstood. I was stating, apparently poorly, that many factors can go into this, and automatically assuming CTE is the root cause of all evil is an overreaction and misguided.

[Steve9347]

No one has said this.

 

You said that it was bulls***, dont backtrack now, stand by your statement.

Nothing about my statement said that CTE is bulls*** and does not exist. Christ, read words. I pointed out that many other factors can cause depression.

Edited May 2, 2012 by Steve9347

[Soxbadger]

yes 20.2 percent is a large increase, but i just don't think its safe to make definitive statements that insinuate that every single person with 3 or more concussions will have triple the rate of depression, when the study said 20.2 percent of 595 people that were interviewed had triple the depression rate.

 

Where is anyone saying this?

 

There is a documented correlation between concussions and depression.

 

Steve wants to completely ignore the correlation because "celebrities kill themselves sometimes".

 

The fact is that 80% of the people who had 3 concussions did not suffer depression, its just the rate of depression in the subgroup is higher, thus why people in this thread want there to be more research into the issue.

 

I just dont think you should ignore these studies like Steve is doing. Hes basically arguing that science can never prove anything, thus we shouldnt rely on science.

[knightni]

When it should be 6.75%, 20.2% is a gigantic increase, well outside of any reasonable margin of error.

 

God damn stats always mess with the actual truth.

 

[Balta1701]

yes 20.2 percent is a large increase, but i just don't think its safe to make definitive statements that insinuate that every single person with 3 or more concussions will have triple the rate of depression, when the study said 20.2 percent of 595 people that were interviewed had triple the depression rate.

You're right in one sense...you need one more qualifier. Both of the groups being compared there play football. That is a subset, and probably a certain type of injury (and presumably, some fraction of those people had substantially more than 3 concussions as well).

 

If you want to take it farther, you need to look at other concussion incidence studies in different groups. Here's one in veterans. Similar story, somewhat different percentages.

Here's another, no idea if the link is proprietary. It also cites about a dozen other articles that have found similar relationships between post-concussion symptoms and expression of depression.

[Soxbadger]

Nothing about my statement said that CTE is bulls*** and does not exist. Christ, read words. I pointed out that many other factors can cause depression.

 

And no one said otherwise, but what you clearly said in your own words is:

 

I really think that this whole concern about head injuries in terms of causing these guys to be depressed and off themselves is a bunch of bulls***. You see this everywhere with people who fall from fame - they don't know how to deal with it.

 

You see child stars, actors and actresses, musicians, it happens in all walks of "celebrity", and that's really what I think should be to blame. To hell with any brain damage causing these guys to lose their s***.

 

You are now trying to tell me I cant read.

 

What you are trying to claim you said is the following:

 

"I dont really think that head injuries are the entire cause for depression amongst NFL athletes. While concussions may cause mental health issues and may cause concussions there are several other factors that may increase the NFL players risk factors, one of those is fall from grace. When you look at other stars, they in my opinion, also have a higher rate of suicide, although I dont really have any statistics to support this claim."

 

I dont really see your post as saying that, and I dont think any reasonable reader could either.

[flippedoutpunk]

Where is anyone saying this?

 

From Balta

In the case of 3 or more concussions, the depression rate triples.

 

Thats a definitive statement which would lead someone to believe that if you have 3 or more concussions you automatically qualify for triple the depression rate, which is not what the study said. 20.2 percent of 595 cases, so you're definitely at risk, but it is not a sure thing.

 

 

[Steve9347]

I just dont think you should ignore these studies like Steve is doing. Hes basically arguing that science can never prove anything, thus we shouldnt rely on science.

The "science" you elude to is not conclusive and certainly not expansive. Keep it up though, because I clearly stated "science does not exist, I love the Bible" and nothing like "other factors could be the root cause".

 

s***, sometimes people are just crazy.

[StrangeSox]

definitive studies = polling 595 players that have had 3 or more concussions and having only 20.2 percent of them say yes they suffer from depression. SCIENCE!

 

A sample size of 595 from the pool of ex-NFL players is huge and more than enough for statistical significance. Qualifying 20.2% as "only" has to be done by comparing it to the control group (non-NFL players) response rate.

[Steve9347]

stuff

NFL players don't have a higher rate of suicide than the general population.

[Soxbadger]

From Balta

 

 

Thats a definitive statement which would lead someone to believe that if you have 3 or more concussions you automatically qualify for triple the depression rate, which is not what the study said. 20.2 percent of 595 cases, so you're definitely at risk, but it is not a sure thing.

 

Well Balta shouldnt have been so zealous with his statements. Id guess he meant to put the disclaimer "based on the studies" or "studies indicate", as even if you had 1 billion tests youd still have a margin of error in any result. That is just the nature of science.

[StrangeSox]

ok but don't say that this is CONCLUSIVE evidence that concussions = depression.. if the article says 100 percent or heck even 90 percent of people with 3 or more concussions have depression, then yes that is damn conclusive evidence. otherwise all you can say is that there is a chance that you will suffer from depression. A less than 50 percent chance even, which seems to be a magic number when it comes to a convincing poll.

 

Strongly increasing the likelihood of depression does not imply that every single sufferer of concussions will have depression. That's a pretty dishonest interpretation of what's being claimed.

 

You need to compare rates of depression against those of the normal population. Think of it like this hypothetical:

 

Exposure to Product X is claimed to increase your risk of cancer. In the normal population, only 3% of people get this particular cancer. In the group exposed to this Product X, 15% get this cancer. Would you say that it isn't conclusive that exposure to this product increases your likelihood of getting cancer because it isn't above 50% (this is a weird misunderstanding of stats, btw), or would you say that a 5x increase in cancer rates is pretty damn conclusive?

[Soxbadger]

NFL players don't have a higher rate of suicide than the general population.

 

Where did you find this statistic?

[StrangeSox]

in 20.2 percent of 595 cases, not 100 percent.

 

This is not correct. You are misunderstanding what the statistics represent and what "tripling" the rate of depression means.

[Balta1701]

Here's a study from about a decade ago, covering 100,000+ patients, who similarly finds an increase in the suicide risk of >2 associated with concussions, with the highest risk increase associated with the most severe concussions, and strongly suggests that societal factors can also influence that rate (which would imply a role for some sort of beneficial, league-wide response).

[StrangeSox]

yes 20.2 percent is a large increase, but i just don't think its safe to make definitive statements that insinuate that every single person with 3 or more concussions will have triple the rate of depression, when the study said 20.2 percent of 595 people that were interviewed had triple the depression rate.

 

This statement doesn't make any sense. They're not saying that their depression is three times as bad but that this population subset, ex-NFL players with 3+ concussions, is three times as likely to have concussions.

 

20.2% interviewed had depression, individuals don't have rates of disease.