2012-2013 NFL Thread

[GoodAsGould]

I disagree that being a back up in NFL gives more relevant experience.

 

Being a starter gives more relevant experience, which is why outside of Tom Brady, the top QB's were all starters in college, and generally for at least 2 years.

 

If you cant even win the starting job at your college, how are you going to win the job in the NFL?

 

Yes I get that Flynn was a back up to Jamarcus, but that guy isnt even in the NFL.

 

The point of the stats was to show how little actual playing time Flynn has had, and I think thats relevant.

 

If that was true why would teams ever have a first round QB sit a year.... its an entirely different game. Also, it is only 2 preseason games and Wilson did it all against backups so he might just be another Caleb Hanie...

[RockRaines]

The most interesting part of the whole story is that Bielema took credit for "developing" Wilson as a QB.

 

 

[Kyyle23]

Kyle,

 

I dont think Seattle planned on drafting Wilson. But he fell to them and they took a chance. If the guy was a few inches taller, he was easily a 1st round pick. He had the highest qb rating in NCAA history playing for a running team.

 

I guess the question is:

 

Would you rather have a team who puts out the guy they think is the best?

 

Or the guy with the biggest salary?

 

I dont know that we have seen enough of either to make that determination. I know Russell Wilson is your guy, but Gould is right, you can throw college numbers up all day long and at the end of the day it is still college. The NFL makes mincemeat out of college superstars that started all four seasons. And guys that get one season as a senior to start and put up decent numbers go on to NFL greatness despite being drafted late, like Tom Brady. The only way to determine it is by watching them play.

 

And at the end of the day, it is like the 359th different QB that Carroll has started in 3 seasons

[Soxbadger]

If that was true why would teams ever have a first round QB sit a year.... its an entirely different game. Also, it is only 2 preseason games and Wilson did it all against backups so he might just be another Caleb Hanie...

 

Some teams have had QB's sit, others have not. Manning didnt sit, Stafford didnt sit, Cam Newton didnt sit. Brees sat, Brady sat, Rogers sat. That is about 50/50 and a lot depends on the actual situation of the team.

 

For example this year, Griffin and Luck will both start. Times are changing.

 

And Im not saying Wilson will be any good, the point is that Flynn is basically completely unproven, so why would you just had him the job? The reason that they are starting Wilson is to see what he can do against a starting defense. If he flops, that experiment failed. If he does good, why shoudlnt he take Flynn's job?

 

i dont know what will happen, I just know I wouldnt hand Flynn anything.

 

 

The most interesting part of the whole story is that Bielema took credit for "developing" Wilson as a QB.

 

That is odd, but Bielema is crazy. Hes the coach, but I dont really respect him to be honest.

 

 

I dont know that we have seen enough of either to make that determination. I know Russell Wilson is your guy, but Gould is right, you can throw college numbers up all day long and at the end of the day it is still college. The NFL makes mincemeat out of college superstars that started all four seasons. And guys that get one season as a senior to start and put up decent numbers go on to NFL greatness despite being drafted late, like Tom Brady. The only way to determine it is by watching them play.

 

And at the end of the day, it is like the 359th different QB that Carroll has started in 3 seasons

 

Im not saying Wilson will be good.

 

Im saying there is no reason to hand Flynn a job. Whoever earns it should get it, regardless of salary.

 

And Carroll isnt a good NFL coach, he is used to college with extreme turnover.

Edited August 21, 2012 by Soxbadger

[iamshack]

The ultimate goal is to select the guy that gives you the best chance to win in the NFL.

 

NFL teams have shown they value size and tools over college experience or production.

 

At this stage, I don't think there is anything either guy can do to make it absolutely clear that he will succeed, therefore, you have to go with the limited information you have.

 

Of that information, there is more to show Flynn would likely succeed than Wilson, as Flynn's success, albeit limited, has occurred in the NFL, while Wilson's has not.

 

Thus it seems as though Flynn would be the choice, at least to get the first crack at it.

 

However, if Seattle feels as though Wilson's size and/or tools would given them the best chance to win, then they should choose him. It would be hard to reach that conclusion, seemingly, since many other teams obviously did not seem to feel that would be the case.

[RockRaines]

However, if Seattle feels as though Wilson's size and/or tools would given them the best chance to win, then they should choose him. It would be hard to reach that conclusion, seemingly, since many other teams obviously did not seem to feel that would be the case.

We all know draft grading is not the most accurate, there are plenty of good to great QB's in the NFL that fell because of height or perceived arm strength issues. Drew Brees was considered a midget with a noodle arm that only put up numbers because he played in the spread. Its all a crap shoot.

 

I personally think Wilson was underrated as he put up good numbers in a run-heavy pro-style offense with only one year of that scheme under his belt. His learning curve was off the charts IMO. Not to mention this was a guy who was playing pro baseball up until the NFL draft. Thats unreal.

Edited August 22, 2012 by RockRaines

[Soxbadger]

Wilson is an interesting case because no one denies his talent. He is smart, he has a good arm and he is athletic. He put up ridiculous stats last year in a run based offense.

 

He is vertically challenged though.

 

If he was 6'2 people would have been considering him in the first easy.

 

Also Flynn was drafted in the 7th round. So its not like he was a cant miss prospect out of College, if anything Wilson was higher rated coming out of college.

Edited August 22, 2012 by Soxbadger

[Kyyle23]

@MrFantasyExpert: SOURCE: The #Packers are putting together a package around Randall Cobb and late pick/s to acquire #Jaguars RB Maurice Jones-Drew.

 

Trolling the internets again?

[Brian]

@MrFantasyExpert: SOURCE: The #Packers are putting together a package around Randall Cobb and late pick/s to acquire #Jaguars RB Maurice Jones-Drew.

 

Trolling the internets again?

 

That would be a nightmare. Jordy Nelson and tons more.

[RZZZA]

fudge packers. We better hope that don't get him.

[Kyyle23]

Consider the source, I posted it just because, but I don't believe it

[Soxbadger]

Why would the Packers get MJD?

 

It would be a completely stupid waste of resources. They dont need a #1 rb, they just need a few solid rbs who are cheap so that they can pay other more important positions.

[witesoxfan]

You speak of Drew Brees, yet considering he played in a spread, you would think his collegiate completion percentage should have been better than 61.2% while never really getting better year to year. Matthew Stafford did improve each year he was in college, but prior to his junior year, no one would have guessed that a guy who completed around 53% of his passes would have been the 1st overall pick and a 5000 yard passer. Aaron Rodgers looked the part of a good, but not great, QB. And one of the greatest QBs of the last 25 years - who holds pretty much every passing record in the NFL - threw 9 touchdowns during his final year of school.

 

But then there's JaMarcus Russell, playing in a run heavy offense, putting up a 67.2 completion percentage, throwing 28 touchdowns and 8 picks with a 9.1 YPA. He looked like a solid bet to be, at the very least, a serviceable QB in the NFL. And he's now considered the biggest bust ever. Nevermind that Brady Quinn had been putting up equally gaudy numbers his last two years at Notre Dame.

 

You can find examples of this all over. You can't ignore college numbers, but they aren't an indicator of success, no matter the competition nor the system they were in.

[justBLAZE]

Sources: Urlacher turned to alternative therapy before knee scope

[Steve9347]

Sources: Urlacher turned to alternative therapy before knee scope

Something tells me we are going to be without the big guy this season.

[RockRaines]

You speak of Drew Brees, yet considering he played in a spread, you would think his collegiate completion percentage should have been better than 61.2% while never really getting better year to year. Matthew Stafford did improve each year he was in college, but prior to his junior year, no one would have guessed that a guy who completed around 53% of his passes would have been the 1st overall pick and a 5000 yard passer. Aaron Rodgers looked the part of a good, but not great, QB. And one of the greatest QBs of the last 25 years - who holds pretty much every passing record in the NFL - threw 9 touchdowns during his final year of school.

 

But then there's JaMarcus Russell, playing in a run heavy offense, putting up a 67.2 completion percentage, throwing 28 touchdowns and 8 picks with a 9.1 YPA. He looked like a solid bet to be, at the very least, a serviceable QB in the NFL. And he's now considered the biggest bust ever. Nevermind that Brady Quinn had been putting up equally gaudy numbers his last two years at Notre Dame.

 

You can find examples of this all over. You can't ignore college numbers, but they aren't an indicator of success, no matter the competition nor the system they were in.

I'm pretty sure you are agreeing with me here but are using my posts as examples of why I am wrong? Color me confused.

[Soxbadger]

You can find examples of this all over. You can't ignore college numbers, but they aren't an indicator of success, no matter the competition nor the system they were in.

 

Who has said otherwise?

 

The point was how FEW games Flynn has played.

 

Im pretty sure every QB you mentioned started at least 2 years in college. There are a million reasons why College States dont necessarily match NFL stats, including but not limited to: different size ball, different rules for coverage, less talented receivers, unbalanced schedules, unbalanced teams. I could go on forever.

 

But its very rare for a starting NFL QB to be handed a job when they havent started 16 games at any level above High School. Even Brady started 25 games.

 

Matt Flynn has started 2 games in the NFL and maybe 15 games in college. That just is a tremendously small sample size. There just is really no reason to hand Flynn the job, which is all I have been arguing.

 

The college stats were just to show how little Flynn actually played.

[bmags]

Eh, Matt Hasselback, Jake Delhomme, we've seen these small sample size QBs get signed to be starters before and it has worked out. Not everyone is Kolb.

[Jake]

I'm just very surprised that they would give Flynn all of that money and not basically hand him the job, at least to start with.

[Soxbadger]

Eh, Matt Hasselback, Jake Delhomme, we've seen these small sample size QBs get signed to be starters before and it has worked out. Not everyone is Kolb.

 

?

 

Hasselbeck started 2 seasons at Boston College. (701 attempts)

 

Delhomme started all 4 years at a small Louisiana Lafayette. (1246 attempts)

 

Kevin Kolb started 4 years at Houston. (1565 attempts)

 

Matt Flynn started 1 year at LSU. (437 attempts)

 

I guess people still arent understanding how little Matt Flynn has actually played in his career. Since 2004 Matt Flynn has thrown 569 passes in actual live games. Every name you mentioned, threw far more than that prior to being given a job at the NFL level. Furthermore, Hasselbeck the closest comparison lowest amount of throws in actual games over an 7 year period was: 1051 attempts, which was slightly less than 2x the attempts Flynn has.

 

I really can not think of any QB who has played this little and been given a starting QB job. Flynn is so untested and unproven that he should absolutely have to win the job.

 

I dont see how you can argue that it would be smart for Seattle to just hand Flynn the job when he has thrown less than 600 passes since 2004.

Edited August 22, 2012 by Soxbadger

[Steve9347]

?

 

Hasselbeck started 2 seasons at Boston College. (701 attempts)

 

Delhomme started all 4 years at a small Louisiana Lafayette. (1246 attempts)

 

Kevin Kolb started 4 years at Houston. (1565 attempts)

 

Matt Flynn started 1 year at LSU. (437 attempts)

 

I guess people still arent understanding how little Matt Flynn has actually played in his career. Since 2004 Matt Flynn has thrown 569 passes in actual live games. Every name you mentioned, threw far more than that prior to being given a job at the NFL level. Furthermore, Hasselbeck the closest comparison lowest amount of throws in actual games over an 7 year period was: 1051 attempts, which was slightly less than 2x the attempts Flynn has.

 

I really can not think of any QB who has played this little and been given a starting QB job. Flynn is so untested and unproven that he should absolutely have to win the job.

 

I dont see how you can argue that it would be smart for Seattle to just hand Flynn the job when he has thrown less than 600 passes since 2004.

He's not talking about college. No one cares about college when talking the NFL except for you! He's talking about "in the NFL". Those are clearly all QBs who were NFL backups who went on to start elsewhere.

Edited August 22, 2012 by Steve9347

[bmags]

I don't really care, at all, about college. Delhomme was a backup in Nola that showed occasional brilliance. Hasselback was Favre's backup, that Holmgren traded for. Nobody cares about college. BUt there is precedent for handing a former NFL backup a starting job based off limited action.

[YASNY]

For some strange reason, all this talk about sample size as a backup compared to assuming a starting QB role makes me think of Caleb Haney.

[Soxbadger]

He's not talking about college. No one cares about college when talking the NFL except for you! He's talking about "in the NFL". Those are clearly all QBs who were NFL backups who went on to start elsewhere.

 

Right, he just wants to pretend that they didnt play 2x as many college games as Flynn.

 

Im saying you cant look at it in a vacuum and pretend that the NCAA games didnt occur.

 

Basically every starting QB I can think of started at least 2 years (in NCAA or NFL) before being given a starting position, can anyone think of a guy who didnt? Even Brady started at Michigan 2 years.

[Kyyle23]

Right, he just wants to pretend that they didnt play 2x as many college games as Flynn.

 

Im saying you cant look at it in a vacuum and pretend that the NCAA games didnt occur.

 

Basically every starting QB I can think of started at least 2 years (in NCAA or NFL) before being given a starting position, can anyone think of a guy who didnt? Even Brady started at Michigan 2 years.

 

Matt Cassel. 0 college games started