Texsox Posted February 24, 2012 Author Share Posted February 24, 2012 You can't just kick it up the chain of command, the coaches needed to call the police and be certain it was investigated. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Texsox Posted February 24, 2012 Author Share Posted February 24, 2012 QUOTE (southsider2k5 @ Feb 23, 2012 -> 08:01 AM) If the principal suspects something illegal, their next stop is either the systems top administrators (who then call the police) or calling the police. That is the law. We saw how sending it to the top administrator did at Penn State. I would not have hesitated to call the police. Gay or straight. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
StrangeSox Posted February 24, 2012 Share Posted February 24, 2012 (edited) QUOTE (Tex @ Feb 24, 2012 -> 05:35 AM) We saw how sending it to the top administrator did at Penn State. I would not have hesitated to call the police. Gay or straight. Reports by an eye witness of child rape =/= a 16 year old dating an 18 year old with no confirmation of sexual contact. edit: though I'd hope that this incident makes schools in Texas examine their policy in instances like this where the age difference is less than 3 years (I don't know if knowledge of sexual contact between a 16 yo and an 18yo should be reported) and that they make sure their teachers are properly trained. Edited February 24, 2012 by StrangeSox Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
iamshack Posted February 24, 2012 Share Posted February 24, 2012 QUOTE (StrangeSox @ Feb 24, 2012 -> 06:29 AM) Reports by an eye witness of child rape =/= a 16 year old dating an 18 year old with no confirmation of sexual contact. edit: though I'd hope that this incident makes schools in Texas examine their policy in instances like this where the age difference is less than 3 years (I don't know if knowledge of sexual contact between a 16 yo and an 18yo should be reported) and that they make sure their teachers are properly trained. My goodness, I don't know what people expect of teachers and administrators these days, but in my school, they would have been calling the police on us all day instead of actually teaching. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Texsox Posted February 24, 2012 Author Share Posted February 24, 2012 QUOTE (StrangeSox @ Feb 24, 2012 -> 06:29 AM) Reports by an eye witness of child rape =/= a 16 year old dating an 18 year old with no confirmation of sexual contact. edit: though I'd hope that this incident makes schools in Texas examine their policy in instances like this where the age difference is less than 3 years (I don't know if knowledge of sexual contact between a 16 yo and an 18yo should be reported) and that they make sure their teachers are properly trained. Not equal but within the same area. McQuery wasn't certain what he saw, he's changed his story a couple times on what he told Paterno. If it turns out to be an abusive relationship and the coach did not report it, or only told her boss, her career and reputation is ruined. There is not downside to reporting it, the only risk is not reporting. Why should the coach risk their career and reputation by not reporting it? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
iamshack Posted February 24, 2012 Share Posted February 24, 2012 QUOTE (Tex @ Feb 24, 2012 -> 10:09 AM) Not equal but within the same area. McQuery wasn't certain what he saw, he's changed his story a couple times on what he told Paterno. If it turns out to be an abusive relationship and the coach did not report it, or only told her boss, her career and reputation is ruined. There is not downside to reporting it, the only risk is not reporting. Why should the coach risk their career and reputation by not reporting it? Umm, a loss of privacy by the students? A loss of trust between students and teachers/administrators? An atmosphere at school similar to a police state? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
StrangeSox Posted February 24, 2012 Share Posted February 24, 2012 (edited) QUOTE (Tex @ Feb 24, 2012 -> 10:09 AM) Not equal but within the same area. McQuery wasn't certain what he saw, he's changed his story a couple times on what he told Paterno. If it turns out to be an abusive relationship and the coach did not report it, or only told her boss, her career and reputation is ruined. There is not downside to reporting it, the only risk is not reporting. I figured that this was your angle since the OP. Stop being a dummy. McQuery saw an adult male sexually abusing a child. By Paterno's own admission, McQuery informed him that he witnessed sexual contact. In this case, a coach corned a 16 year old student and she admitted that she was dating an 18 year old. She did not admit to sexual conduct, at least according to the ruling so far. They are not on the same continent. The coach also did not report this to police or administrators but to the parents. Edited February 24, 2012 by StrangeSox Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Texsox Posted February 24, 2012 Author Share Posted February 24, 2012 If I do not report, I run the risk of losing my career. If I report I lose nothing. Seems really easy. Why would I want to risk my career and reputation? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Texsox Posted February 24, 2012 Author Share Posted February 24, 2012 QUOTE (StrangeSox @ Feb 24, 2012 -> 10:37 AM) I figured that this was your angle since the OP. Stop being a dummy. McQuery saw an adult male sexually abusing a child. By Paterno's own admission, McQuery informed him that he witnessed sexual contact. In this case, a coach corned a 16 year old student and she admitted that she was dating an 18 year old. She did not admit to sexual conduct, at least according to the ruling so far. They are not on the same continent. The coach also did not report this to police or administrators but to the parents. Read all of McQuery's statements. he has said he did not know what he saw. The same continent is if I, as a teacher, have knowledge about a possible illegal relationship and if I do not report it, I am covering it up, and could lose my job. It's that simple. It is not up to me to investigate, I must contact police and force them to investigate. I may not agree with the current environment but I damn sure will follow them. It's not about agreeing with what should and should not be done. I'm not going to risk my career, reputation, and income. How does that not make sense to anyone? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
StrangeSox Posted February 24, 2012 Share Posted February 24, 2012 There's nothing illegal about a 16yo and an 18yo dating. These coaches corned the student and forced a confession which did not include any illegal revelations (even disregarding the less than 3 years clause) and then told her mother. McQuery saw physical sexual contact between a child and an adult and reported it to a prominent public figure who was his boss. These are not remotely the same thing, and I sincerely doubt every high school teacher who is knowledgeable of potential relationships between 16 yo's and 18 yo's are mandatory reporters. Like I said, this is a bit of a grey area and, if I were a teacher, I'd be asking my administrators about how to handle this situation. But I sure as hell wouldn't be comparing it to first-hand reports of actual child rape. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Texsox Posted February 24, 2012 Author Share Posted February 24, 2012 QUOTE (StrangeSox @ Feb 24, 2012 -> 02:26 PM) There's nothing illegal about a 16yo and an 18yo dating. These coaches corned the student and forced a confession which did not include any illegal revelations (even disregarding the less than 3 years clause) and then told her mother. McQuery saw physical sexual contact between a child and an adult and reported it to a prominent public figure who was his boss. These are not remotely the same thing, and I sincerely doubt every high school teacher who is knowledgeable of potential relationships between 16 yo's and 18 yo's are mandatory reporters. Like I said, this is a bit of a grey area and, if I were a teacher, I'd be asking my administrators about how to handle this situation. But I sure as hell wouldn't be comparing it to first-hand reports of actual child rape. I am not an attorney nor a police officer it is not my job to determine if a crime has been committed. Further I do not have to see a crime committed to be compelled to report it. If I suspect I am duty bound to report it. Plain and simple. Teachers are mandatory reporters. If I err on the side of reporting I do not risk my career or reputation. Again, tell me why I should risk my career, reputation, and income? If I report it and the police determine that the relationship is not illegal, I haven't lost anything. If I do not report it, my defense can't be later. well I, as an English teacher, decided that no law was being broken. I only lose if I fail to report. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Texsox Posted February 24, 2012 Author Share Posted February 24, 2012 Your legal obligation Current law requires that professionals such as teachers, doctors, nurses, or child daycare workers must make a verbal report within 48 hours. Failure to report suspected child abuse or neglect is a misdemeanor punishable by imprisonment of up to 180 days and/or a fine of up to $2,000 (Texas Family Code, Chapter 261). Reporting suspected child abuse to your principal, school counselor or superintendent will NOT satisfy your obligation under this law. Local school district policy cannot conflict with or supercede the state law requiring you to report child abuse to a law enforcement agency or DFPS. https://www.oag.state.tx.us/victims/childabuse.shtml Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Texsox Posted February 24, 2012 Author Share Posted February 24, 2012 Your legal Protection Your report of child abuse or neglect is confidential and immune from civil or criminal liability as long as the report is made in "good faith" and "without malice." In good faith means that the person making the report took reasonable steps to learn facts that were readily available and at hand. Without malice means that the person did not intend to injure or violate the rights of another person. Provided these two conditions are met, you will also be immune from liability if you are asked to participate in any judicial proceedings that might result from your report. If you suspect abuse: DON'T try to investigate DON'T confront the abuser DO report your reasonable suspicions It is not up you to determine whether your suspicions are true. A trained investigator will evaluate the child's situation. Even if your report does not bring decisive action, it may help establish a pattern that will eventually be clear enough to help the child. The following indications don't by themselves necessarily indicate abuse. You might talk to the child a little to see if there is a simple or innocent explanation for what you have observed. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
iamshack Posted February 24, 2012 Share Posted February 24, 2012 QUOTE (Tex @ Feb 24, 2012 -> 04:10 PM) https://www.oag.state.tx.us/victims/childabuse.shtml Do you really feel that the "child abuse" mentioned in the duty to report you cited is the same context as we have here? I know you want to cover your own ass, and that's great...but you need to put yourself in context of what actually happened here...all you've heard is that a 16 year old may be dating an 18 year old. Do you honestly think you could be fired for not calling the police about that? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
iamshack Posted February 24, 2012 Share Posted February 24, 2012 QUOTE (Tex @ Feb 24, 2012 -> 04:12 PM) Notice the "without malice" language. I would argue this was entirely WITH malice. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Texsox Posted February 24, 2012 Author Share Posted February 24, 2012 If it turns out the child was in an illegal relationship and I covered it up? Damn right I would be fired. Do you think I would be fired for reporting it? When the s*** hits the fan and people start second guessing and demanding that everyone who knew be punished, what do you think happens? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Texsox Posted February 24, 2012 Author Share Posted February 24, 2012 QUOTE (iamshack @ Feb 24, 2012 -> 03:15 PM) Notice the "without malice" language. I would argue this was entirely WITH malice. I agree what the coaches did was with malice. Which is why I would have reported to the police. That way it could remain somewhat private if nothing illegal was happening. I would not have confronted the child and probably not have spoken with the parent. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
iamshack Posted February 24, 2012 Share Posted February 24, 2012 (edited) QUOTE (Tex @ Feb 24, 2012 -> 04:16 PM) If it turns out the child was in an illegal relationship and I covered it up? Damn right I would be fired. Do you think I would be fired for reporting it? When the s*** hits the fan and people start second guessing and demanding that everyone who knew be punished, what do you think happens? It's not "covering it up" if you heard a rumor and didn't call the police. Give me a break. And we've now stated this several times. It is not illegal to for a 16 year old to date an 18 year old. Edited February 24, 2012 by iamshack Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
StrangeSox Posted February 24, 2012 Share Posted February 24, 2012 Tex, Please ask your principle if you are mandated to report knowledge of a 16 year old dating an 18 year old. I don't think the s*** will ever hit the fan for a 16 and an 18 year old dating or even, gasp, having sex, because the statute specifically says that's a defensible act. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
StrangeSox Posted February 24, 2012 Share Posted February 24, 2012 I'd also point out that they clearly say that going to the admin isn't enough, so trying to use this to excuse your position on Penn State fails. And, since these coaches went to the parents, they double-failed. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
StrangeSox Posted February 24, 2012 Share Posted February 24, 2012 QUOTE (iamshack @ Feb 24, 2012 -> 03:14 PM) I know you want to cover your own ass, and that's great...but you need to put yourself in context of what actually happened here...all you've heard is that a 16 year old may be dating an 18 year old. No, you locked a 16 year old in a room and pressured her to admit that they were dating but nothing more. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Texsox Posted February 24, 2012 Author Share Posted February 24, 2012 From the Texas Attorney General Website and the training I have had It is not up you to determine whether your suspicions are true. A trained investigator will evaluate the child's situation. Again, why would I risk my career, reputation, and income? I am not an attorney. If I knew a minor was dating an adult, I would report it, not play cop or attorney. I ONLY LOSE IF I FAIL TO REPORT. Again, if I fail to report that is the same as covering it up in the public's eyes. I only risk my job if I fail to report. And in case anyone is missing the point, I am saying what I would have done as a coach and teacher. I am not suggesting that what those coaches did was correct. It was wrong. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Texsox Posted February 24, 2012 Author Share Posted February 24, 2012 QUOTE (StrangeSox @ Feb 24, 2012 -> 03:28 PM) Tex, Please ask your principle if you are mandated to report knowledge of a 16 year old dating an 18 year old. I don't think the s*** will ever hit the fan for a 16 and an 18 year old dating or even, gasp, having sex, because the statute specifically says that's a defensible act. We have these conversations twice annually. he always says "if we are not sure, report it to the police." Again you are asking professionals to risk their careers based on them playing lawyer and cop. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
StrangeSox Posted February 24, 2012 Share Posted February 24, 2012 (edited) QUOTE (Tex @ Feb 24, 2012 -> 03:38 PM) From the Texas Attorney Website and the training I have had Again, why would I risk my career, reputation, and income? I am not an attorney. If I knew a minor was dating an adult, I would report it, not play cop or attorney. I ONLY LOSE IF I FAIL TO REPORT. Again, if I fail to report that is the same as covering it up in the public's eyes. I only risk my job if I fail to report. What are you reporting? Not illegal activity or suspicion of abuse. Just that two people who are legally allowed sexual contact are dating. Edited February 24, 2012 by StrangeSox Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
StrangeSox Posted February 24, 2012 Share Posted February 24, 2012 QUOTE (Tex @ Feb 24, 2012 -> 03:41 PM) We have these conversations twice annually. he always says "if we are not sure, report it to the police." Again you are asking professionals to risk their careers based on them playing lawyer and cop. I'd clarify if a situation that falls under that statute's affirmative defense clause is something that should be reported. Would you report a 16 and 18 year old who are married? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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