Cali Posted February 19, 2012 Share Posted February 19, 2012 Pretty much spot on. The 2012 White Sox making the playoffs with the roster as assembled would be a freakin' miracle. I think the 2 biggest factors keeping KW and Jerry from going Full Rebuild are 2005 and the fact that they play in Chicago. Pride and loyalty gets too much in their heads and they can't or wont pull the trigger on something we all think should happen. The point of baseball SHOULD be to win, and not worry if fans leave because a team is in rebuild mode. Hardcore Sox fans won't stop attending games if a rebuild were to happen. Sure fairweather/casual fans would but they'd also come soaring back if the Sox started to win... I don't think anyone here is fearing that the Sox will be contracted or something if attendance goes in the tank for a few years. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
caulfield12 Posted February 19, 2012 Share Posted February 19, 2012 (edited) Will just be very happy when ST starts so there can be something positive to focus on. This is even more tiring than last year's pre-spring "overoptimism." Things are never as bad as they seem with the Sox, and experience has taught as that they're almost never as good as they look (1984, 1994, 1997-98, 2001, 2003, 2006, 2009, 2011). Edited February 19, 2012 by caulfield12 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
YASNY Posted February 19, 2012 Share Posted February 19, 2012 QUOTE (Marty34 @ Feb 18, 2012 -> 06:38 PM) . . . Or the farm system being in disarray in part because the GM's buddy was purposely signing prospects who had no chance at becoming major league players in order to embezzle money. You have to remember that Wilder was a well respected member of the Brewers organization when the Sox hired him. Hardly KW's buddy. Once hired, KW put a lot of faith in him based on his past performance with the Brewers, which is what they surely had in mind when they hired Wilder. Because Wilder turned into a thief should not be a reflection on Williams. Hmmm, I could easily use a politically based analogy here but since this isn't the Buster, I'll refrain. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Marty34 Posted February 19, 2012 Share Posted February 19, 2012 QUOTE (YASNY @ Feb 18, 2012 -> 11:24 PM) You have to remember that Wilder was a well respected member of the Brewers organization when the Sox hired him. Hardly KW's buddy. Once hired, KW put a lot of faith in him based on his past performance with the Brewers, which is what they surely had in mind when they hired Wilder. Because Wilder turned into a thief should not be a reflection on Williams. Hmmm, I could easily use a politically based analogy here but since this isn't the Buster, I'll refrain. At the very least it is a serious black eye on the Williams administration and deserves much more blame for the current state of Sox player development than it has been given. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
southsider2k5 Posted February 19, 2012 Share Posted February 19, 2012 QUOTE (Marty34 @ Feb 18, 2012 -> 07:51 PM) I would prefer it if you stopped picking on me. If you quit making ridiculous statements, there would be nothing to pick on. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Marty34 Posted February 19, 2012 Share Posted February 19, 2012 QUOTE (southsider2k5 @ Feb 19, 2012 -> 09:39 AM) If you quit making ridiculous statements, there would be nothing to pick on. Ridiculous statements like? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
southsider2k5 Posted February 19, 2012 Share Posted February 19, 2012 QUOTE (Marty34 @ Feb 19, 2012 -> 09:42 AM) Ridiculous statements like? The guy responsible for scouting and signing Latin America has more of an effect on the organization than the field manager of the major league ball club. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Marty34 Posted February 19, 2012 Share Posted February 19, 2012 QUOTE (southsider2k5 @ Feb 19, 2012 -> 09:46 AM) The guy responsible for scouting and signing Latin America has more of an effect on the organization than the field manager of the major league ball club. That's a ridiculous statement I never wrote. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
southsider2k5 Posted February 19, 2012 Share Posted February 19, 2012 QUOTE (Marty34 @ Feb 19, 2012 -> 09:51 AM) That's a ridiculous statement I never wrote. How ever you want to phrase it, it was ridiculous. Wilder is responsible for one very small subset of players coming into the White Sox system. Even optimal franchise signs what three to five guys out of LA a year? How many rookies does the field manager deal with? All of them. Heck if you want to drop down to the minor league level in camps and spring training, the field manager deals with player development of the entire draft and all prospects to some extent. Wilder dealt with the Latin America guys. The comparison is ridiculous. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Marty34 Posted February 19, 2012 Share Posted February 19, 2012 (edited) QUOTE (southsider2k5 @ Feb 19, 2012 -> 09:55 AM) How ever you want to phrase it, it was ridiculous. Wilder is responsible for one very small subset of players coming into the White Sox system. Even optimal franchise signs what three to five guys out of LA a year? How many rookies does the field manager deal with? All of them. Heck if you want to drop down to the minor league level in camps and spring training, the field manager deals with player development of the entire draft and all prospects to some extent. Wilder dealt with the Latin America guys. The comparison is ridiculous. David Wilder begins his fourth season in the White Sox organization, serving the first three as the club's director of player development before earning a promotion to senior director of player personnel prior to the 2007 season. He originally was hired by the White Sox as a special assistant to General Manager Ken Williams on November 5, 2003, before assuming the role of director of player development on December 8, 2003. In his new role, Wilder is responsible for assisting General Manager Ken Williams with evaluating the major league club, as well as assisting with player development and scouting evaluation. As director of player development, Wilder oversaw the entire minor-league department and player development staff and also the club's Latin American Operations. In three seasons in that role, the White Sox system produced pitchers Bobby Jenks and Brandon McCarthy, third baseman Josh Fields and outfielders Brian Anderson, Jerry Owens and Ryan Sweeney for the major-league roster. http://chicago.whitesox.mlb.com/cws/team/e...lder_david.html Edited February 19, 2012 by Marty34 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
caulfield12 Posted February 19, 2012 Share Posted February 19, 2012 KW > Bell > Guillen > Wilder Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
southsider2k5 Posted February 19, 2012 Share Posted February 19, 2012 QUOTE (Marty34 @ Feb 19, 2012 -> 10:04 AM) http://chicago.whitesox.mlb.com/cws/team/e...lder_david.html So you posted an article outlining all of the major leaguers Wilder produced? Nicely done. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
caulfield12 Posted February 19, 2012 Share Posted February 19, 2012 Seems it was also about the "scope" of his powers with the Sox. I found the same article a while back when there was a discussion about who had actually hired Wilder, KW...or whether he was inherited from the previous GM. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Marty34 Posted February 19, 2012 Share Posted February 19, 2012 The White Sox had a convict in charge of player development from 2003 - 2007 and people on this board are blaming Sox player development on Guillen for stunting Morel's growth by limiting him to 435 AB's last year. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Marty34 Posted February 19, 2012 Share Posted February 19, 2012 QUOTE (caulfield12 @ Feb 19, 2012 -> 10:35 AM) Seems it was also about the "scope" of his powers with the Sox. I found the same article a while back when there was a discussion about who had actually hired Wilder, KW...or whether he was inherited from the previous GM. No blame is ever put on Kenny Williams here on Soxtalk.com Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
caulfield12 Posted February 19, 2012 Share Posted February 19, 2012 That's not true, just as much blame has been placed on Williams as Guillen, it's just that KW went about dealing with it more diplomatically and was perceived to be less self-centered with his falling on the sword trick, but he doesn't have a huge number of supporters left here. We're basically left to hope that, like a gambler, his luck has to start changing again sometime soon. He started off with a steep learning curve in the first couple of years, had a great run from 2003-2008 and now he's back in a slump again. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Marty34 Posted February 19, 2012 Share Posted February 19, 2012 QUOTE (caulfield12 @ Feb 19, 2012 -> 10:56 AM) That's not true, just as much blame has been placed on Williams as Guillen, it's just that KW went about dealing with it more diplomatically and was perceived to be less self-centered with his falling on the sword trick, but he doesn't have a huge number of supporters left here. It's funny that Greg gets so much criticism for defending Guillen when SS2K5 and Balta do the same for Williams with nary a word of objection. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Balta1701 Posted February 19, 2012 Share Posted February 19, 2012 QUOTE (Marty34 @ Feb 19, 2012 -> 12:02 PM) It's funny that Greg gets so much criticism for defending Guillen when SS2K5 and Balta do the same for Williams with nary a word of objection. Because we don't defend KW, but we also admit he wasn't the only part of the problem. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Marty34 Posted February 19, 2012 Share Posted February 19, 2012 QUOTE (Balta1701 @ Feb 19, 2012 -> 11:05 AM) Because we don't defend KW, but we also admit he wasn't the only part of the problem. You guys defend Williams against just about all criticism. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Balta1701 Posted February 19, 2012 Share Posted February 19, 2012 QUOTE (Marty34 @ Feb 19, 2012 -> 12:08 PM) You guys defend Guillen against just about all criticism. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Chicago White Sox Posted February 19, 2012 Share Posted February 19, 2012 QUOTE (Marty34 @ Feb 19, 2012 -> 09:21 AM) At the very least it is a serious black eye on the Williams administration and deserves much more blame for the current state of Sox player development than it has been given. You're 100% right about the effect the Wilder fiasco has had on the system. We've basically had no Latin America operations (excluding Cuba) since then and it shows. But who hasn't acknowledged that? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Marty34 Posted February 19, 2012 Share Posted February 19, 2012 QUOTE (Chicago White Sox @ Feb 19, 2012 -> 11:43 AM) You're 100% right about the effect the Wilder fiasco has had on the system. We've basically had no Latin America operations (excluding Cuba) since then and it shows. But who hasn't acknowledged that? Read the thread, plenty of discounting of Wilder's impact. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
southsider2k5 Posted February 19, 2012 Share Posted February 19, 2012 QUOTE (Marty34 @ Feb 19, 2012 -> 11:02 AM) It's funny that Greg gets so much criticism for defending Guillen when SS2K5 and Balta do the same for Williams with nary a word of objection. lol. Saying Dave Wilder is more responsible for failing the Sox than Guillen has nothing to do with defending Williams. It is defending common sense, especially when you were the one who posted an article about all of the guys that Wilder supposedly produced Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
The Ginger Kid Posted February 19, 2012 Share Posted February 19, 2012 I'm officially tired of the dire predictions. ST hasn't even started. Saw a round table on MLB network and to a man they see the sox finishing dead last. Detroit commentators are talking about winning the division by 20 games. GMAFB. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Balta1701 Posted February 19, 2012 Share Posted February 19, 2012 QUOTE (The Ginger Kid @ Feb 19, 2012 -> 02:40 PM) I'm officially tired of the dire predictions. ST hasn't even started. Saw a round table on MLB network and to a man they see the sox finishing dead last. Detroit commentators are talking about winning the division by 20 games. GMAFB. These outcomes aren't unreasonable to me. Both are low probability, but plausible. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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