witesoxfan Posted February 21, 2012 Share Posted February 21, 2012 QUOTE (Tex @ Feb 21, 2012 -> 04:07 PM) It would also be impossible to paint a picture so pessimistic I'd argue with it. I think the proven part of the talent is down from last year, the upside is higher (even subtracting Dunn and Rios). I believe the attitude will be better. Simple and to the point. Agreed completely. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Balta1701 Posted February 21, 2012 Share Posted February 21, 2012 QUOTE (Tex @ Feb 21, 2012 -> 05:07 PM) It would also be impossible to paint a picture so pessimistic I'd argue with it. I think the proven part of the talent is down from last year, the upside is higher (even subtracting Dunn and Rios). I believe the attitude will be better. I really disagree with the idea that the upside is higher. That's the one thing I can't see. Last year's team had a huge upside. This year, we've subtracted an MVP caliber OF, a near all star reliever, and a guaranteed 10 win, 200 inning pitcher. The fact that part of the "Upside" goes into replacing the upside of those guys means that at very best, last year's team had a higher ceiling. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jordan4life_2007 Posted February 21, 2012 Share Posted February 21, 2012 QUOTE (Balta1701 @ Feb 21, 2012 -> 05:46 PM) I really disagree with the idea that the upside is higher. That's the one thing I can't see. Last year's team had a huge upside. This year, we've subtracted an MVP caliber OF, a near all star reliever, and a guaranteed 10 win, 200 inning pitcher. The fact that part of the "Upside" goes into replacing the upside of those guys means that at very best, last year's team had a higher ceiling. Who is this player you speak of? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Balta1701 Posted February 22, 2012 Share Posted February 22, 2012 QUOTE (Jordan4life @ Feb 21, 2012 -> 06:49 PM) Who is this player you speak of? You're telling me that if we're talking "Player ceilings/upside", Carlos Quentin's ceiling isn't an MVP caliber OF? Considering he was an angry slap of a bat away from being an MVP once, that's clearly his upside...he just can't reach it because of injury. Similarly, Jake Peavy's upside is a Cy Young award winner, but he can't reach it any more because of injury. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dick Allen Posted February 22, 2012 Share Posted February 22, 2012 I don't know why the uproar over the poor grade. Its basically a mid term grade anyway. The one that matters is the one at the end of the season, but the Sox had a bad team last year. Lost their most dependable starter. Traded away perhaps their second best run producer and a cost controlled closer and got back a guy with a 10 ERA in AAA and a guy who has 22 IP above A ball. It could work out brilliantly, but at this point, if the goal is to improve, you really can't say any offseason moves clearly improved the team, most moves were clearly driven by budget not talent, although I do agree, the KW/Ozzie dynamic being gone should help some. If that deserves a C at this point, I wish you were grading me throughout my school days. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Quin Posted February 22, 2012 Share Posted February 22, 2012 QUOTE (Balta1701 @ Feb 21, 2012 -> 06:00 PM) You're telling me that if we're talking "Player ceilings/upside", Carlos Quentin's ceiling isn't an MVP caliber OF? Considering he was an angry slap of a bat away from being an MVP once, that's clearly his upside...he just can't reach it because of injury. Similarly, Jake Peavy's upside is a Cy Young award winner, but he can't reach it any more because of injury. 0_o So if we signed Frank Thomas, we'd have a HOF Caliber bat? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
caulfield12 Posted February 22, 2012 Share Posted February 22, 2012 Not sure that the Twins' moves are making make sense at all. They made a horrible mistake thinking Nishioka or Casilla were everyday SS's, then they compounded it by signing Jamey Carroll. In the end, the uncertainty hanging over Mauer, Morneau and Denard Span going forward is more than enough to offset any positives from this past offseason. Seems they're almost in the same situation as the White Sox, because, with the new stadium, they feel compelled to put at least a somewhat competitive product on the field rather than using almost all minor leaguers. Trading Ramos for Capps really backfired, too. Maybe Doumit will be okay, but Mauer's not anything close to a $20+ million player if he's not a full-time catcher. Losing Kubel, Cuddyer AND Delmon Young is a huge hole to fill. Willingham isn't capable of doing it alone, and he's likely to have a "Nick Swisher 2008" year in that huge stadium, rather than overperforming again. Then you have Revere and Span, players who were perfect for the indoor track meets but who are about as logical to play together as Juan Pierre and Scotty Pods at USCF. Arguably their most talented (and enigmatic/erratic) starting pitcher, Liriano, will likely be traded, too. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
caulfield12 Posted February 22, 2012 Share Posted February 22, 2012 QUOTE (Balta1701 @ Feb 21, 2012 -> 06:46 PM) I really disagree with the idea that the upside is higher. That's the one thing I can't see. Last year's team had a huge upside. This year, we've subtracted an MVP caliber OF, a near all star reliever, and a guaranteed 10 win, 200 inning pitcher. The fact that part of the "Upside" goes into replacing the upside of those guys means that at very best, last year's team had a higher ceiling. Peavy being close to 2007 or 2008. Dunn/Rios/Beckham returning to form. Viciedo/DeAza/Morel performing consistently instead of stretches or glimpses of dominance. You also have to concede that we're much more likely to get better production out of LF and leadoff than Pierre, especially the first 2 months of the season, when his defense and offense (or lack thereof) killed us. If Reed performs as well as Santos did in 2010...the other big area where we have potential is 6 minor league pitchers who are all better that what we entered 2011 with in terms of depth at the back end of the rotation. That said, we were relatively healthy last year and didn't have to use the Lucas Harrell's or Carlos Torres' of the world. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rowand44 Posted February 22, 2012 Share Posted February 22, 2012 QUOTE (Balta1701 @ Feb 21, 2012 -> 05:46 PM) I really disagree with the idea that the upside is higher. That's the one thing I can't see. Last year's team had a huge upside. This year, we've subtracted an MVP caliber OF, a near all star reliever, and a guaranteed 10 win, 200 inning pitcher. The fact that part of the "Upside" goes into replacing the upside of those guys means that at very best, last year's team had a higher ceiling. Sale has a higher ceiling than Mark, I'm not really sure if last years CQ had a higher ceiling than this years Viciedo but we'll say he did and you can make a legit argument for Reed or Santos. So an argument can definitely be made that this years team has a higher overal ceiling than lasts. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
caulfield12 Posted February 22, 2012 Share Posted February 22, 2012 (edited) QUOTE (Rowand44 @ Feb 21, 2012 -> 07:27 PM) Sale has a higher ceiling than Mark, I'm not really sure if last years CQ had a higher ceiling than this years Viciedo but we'll say he did and you can make a legit argument for Reed or Santos. So an argument can definitely be made that this years team has a higher overal ceiling than lasts. If Chris Sale has the potential of Randy Johnson-Lite or to end up like Mike Sirotka or Jim Parque, it's certainly a step up from the sheer predictability of a Mark Buehrle season. Or is it? And yet that's the most interesting aspect of baseball...do you want 5 Mark Buehrle's as your starting rotation, or 5 Chris Sale's? Most of those who follow the farm and the scouting/development side of baseball prefer to take their chances with 5 Sale's. Ozzie Guillen surely would go with the 5 cloned Buehrle's. Edited February 22, 2012 by caulfield12 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JorgeFabregas Posted February 22, 2012 Share Posted February 22, 2012 QUOTE (caulfield12 @ Feb 21, 2012 -> 07:32 PM) If Chris Sale has the potential of Randy Johnson-Lite or to end up like Mike Sirotka or Jim Parque, it's certainly a step up from the sheer predictability of a Mark Buehrle season. Or is it? And yet that's the most interesting aspect of baseball...do you want 5 Mark Buehrle's as your starting rotation, or 5 Chris Sale's? Most of those who follow the farm and the scouting/development side of baseball prefer to take their chances with 5 Sale's. Ozzie Guillen surely would go with the 5 cloned Buehrle's. I doubt there'd be much debate. You'd take Buehrle if you were in a position to win now and Sale if you were building for the future. No team in win-now mode would want a rotation full of guys who have pitched out of the bullpen for the last year and a half. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bubba Philips Posted February 22, 2012 Share Posted February 22, 2012 QUOTE (JorgeFabregas @ Feb 21, 2012 -> 09:09 PM) I doubt there'd be much debate. You'd take Buehrle if you were in a position to win now and Sale if you were building for the future. No team in win-now mode would want a rotation full of guys who have pitched out of the bullpen for the last year and a half. We'll always have doubts about each year befor spring training then again sometimes even after the sox lost their commanding lead in 2005. I remember when the sox couldn't get a win with whatever #5 pitcher pitched. I have lot more question marks than I did last year with an inexperienced manager. Is their an award for rookie of the year manager, best comback who thought he was Dunne. One positive is Morel hitting with authority at the end of the season.Beckham showing that he can be the star we figured he could be. RIos, Fukodome, De Aza, our 3 new starters too many question marks for me to comprehend but I will root for my whitesox while hoping for a miracle on the south side. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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