Syria

[StrangeSox]

OMG! Someone prefers their country over another. The horror!

 

It's pretty s***ty to literally value one human's life as less than another simply because of their nationality. That is what Alpha Dog said, not that he prefers the United States of America over Syria.

 

Zomg! Someone wants Middle Eastern people to deal with Middle Eastern problems! How awful!

 

It's pretty s***ty to literally value one human's life as less than another because of their skin tone or religion, as Alpha said. That is not the same as not being in favor of global intervention.

 

 

Jesus Christ SS this holier-than-thou crap from you is so over the top sometimes.

 

Jesus christ your defense of open, explicit racism and bigotry is so disgusting all the time.

 

 

[StrangeSox]

It's impressive how you could write all of this and completely ignore the fact that we jumped on him for justifying staying out because of the color of people's skin.

 

Both SS and I seem to have little interest in joining this conflict, seemingly in agreement with you, but both of us were disgusted by the person who justified staying out by noting the differences in skin color.

 

Apparently you couldn't defend that either so you didn't pay any attention to it. Because yeah, it was that disgusting.

 

No, instead he had to throw up a bunch of dumb strawmen and pretend Alpha said completely different things. Pretty sad that jenks felt the need to rush to the defense of someone who clearly and openly stated that he values one human's life less than another's because of where they live, what their skin color is and what religion they follow.

[Jenksismyhero]

It's impressive how you could write all of this and completely ignore the fact that we jumped on him for justifying staying out because of the color of people's skin.

 

Both SS and I seem to have little interest in joining this conflict, seemingly in agreement with you, but both of us were disgusted by the person who justified staying out by noting the differences in skin color.

 

Apparently you couldn't defend that either so you didn't pay any attention to it. Because yeah, it was that disgusting.

 

SS went after him for more than just skin color, which is why I responded the way I did.

 

You guys, SS, the "-ism" police chief, in particular, just get on people for that s*** way more than is necessary. Do you honestly believe Alpha is a racist guy? I don't. So I didn't read what he said that way.

[StrangeSox]

SS went after him for more than just skin color, which is why I responded the way I did.

 

Yes, I got after him for viewing one human as less valuable than another simply based on their nationality. It's a disgusting attitude.

 

Yes, I got after him for viewing one human as less valuable than another because of their religion. It's also a disgusting attitude.

 

You still felt the need to spring to his defense, make up a bunch of dumb strawmen and then conveniently ignore the incredibly racist s*** he said.

 

You guys, SS, the "-ism" police chief, in particular, just get on people for that s*** way more than is necessary. Do you honestly believe Alpha is a racist guy? I don't. So I didn't read what he said that way.

 

Yes, I do believe that Alpha is racist. This is just the latest blatant example of his racism. That you still don't think somebody who said what he just said is racist is pretty sad.

[Soxbadger]

If both sides did it, then it would seem intervention is even more important to stop BOTH sides from using chemical weapons.

 

And all I will say about this whole "Americans over others" is that not everyone was lucky enough to be born in the greatest country that may have ever existed, but that doesnt mean I condemn them to death because of mere chance. No, that is not what America to me is about. So maybe there is no good answer, maybe intervention would cause more deaths, more misery, more of all the bad.

 

But if its just about money, resources, then you have to help. Because a stack of money isnt worth the paper its printed on if it meant that other people had to suffer. If the United States is going to be destroyed economically, if it all falls apart, Id rather that we went down trying, instead of hording our money in a corner and hoping that the worlds problems never become our problems.

 

You have to believe that if you try and do good things, that if you help other people, that things will change, that people will appreciate it. Because if you dont believe that, then what is all this worth. You might as well just be a monster.

 

No other country has ever been faced with such burden or responsibility, we dont have to accept it, I just choose to.

[Balta1701]

SS went after him for more than just skin color, which is why I responded the way I did.

 

You guys, SS, the "-ism" police chief, in particular, just get on people for that s*** way more than is necessary. Do you honestly believe Alpha is a racist guy? I don't. So I didn't read what he said that way.

Let me put it this way.

 

I think that intervening in Syria sounds moronic. I can't think of a single way in which it will work out positively until we're prepared to put an occupying force in there.

 

And I would never in 4.56 billion years have thought to cite differences in "skin tone" as a reason why. It never would have crossed my mind. Not in any way, shape, or form.

[StrangeSox]

Let me put it this way.

 

I think that intervening in Syria sounds moronic. I can't think of a single way in which it will work out positively until we're prepared to put an occupying force in there.

 

And I would never in 4.56 billion years have thought to cite differences in "skin tone" as a reason why. It never would have crossed my mind. Not in any way, shape, or form.

Remember when the only reason Alpha could think that a bunch of Central and South American countries would join together in issuing a statement critical of the US stopping the Bolivian president's plane to search for Edward Snowden was because they had the same skin color? Good times.

[Soxbadger]

If a war has escalated to where both sides are willing to use chemical weapons, you pretty much have to commit occupying forces. Otherwise people are going to start building biological and chemical weapons again and that poses to great of a risk to all society.

 

You really have to respond disproportionately if it appears its going to continue to happen. Lets call a spade a spade, its not like I was saying much when 100k were killed in a regular civil war. But chemical weapons has to be a line in the sand...

[EvilMonkey]

Let me put it this way.

 

I think that intervening in Syria sounds moronic. I can't think of a single way in which it will work out positively until we're prepared to put an occupying force in there.

 

And I would never in 4.56 billion years have thought to cite differences in "skin tone" as a reason why. It never would have crossed my mind. Not in any way, shape, or form.

The religion/skin tone issue itself is the one reason that WHATEVER we do there will not be good enough, or will be a bad thing. Deny that if you can, but there is no way that this predominently white, Christian nation can intervene there in any way and not have it looked at as a bad thing by a majority of the mid east populace. One civilian killed in collateral damage and its to the war crimes trials for the USA! A mosque gets damaged in some bomb blast and it is just further evidence of our collective Islamiphobia. We need to stay the hell out and let them take care of it themselves. Cloak it in whatever terminology makes you feel warm and fuzzy, just stay out of there.

[Jenksismyhero]

No, instead he had to throw up a bunch of dumb strawmen and pretend Alpha said completely different things. Pretty sad that jenks felt the need to rush to the defense of someone who clearly and openly stated that he values one human's life less than another's because of where they live, what their skin color is and what religion they follow.

 

Jesus. Look at what he said:

 

They are worth less to me because they are not me, my family, my friends, my tribe (country). That whole area over there is messed up. There will need to be a lot more deaths before anything is even near being normal. Let them kill themselves and stay out of it. I just don't care enough to want to do anything. Somebody else can do it. Somebody closer. Somebody with the same religion or skin tone or ideals. Just not us.

 

How is what I said different?

 

First sentence - they're not my friend, family or countrymen, so they're not as important to me. Is that really wrong? Seriously? What am I missing there? It's wrong to think complete strangers an entire world away are not as important as those you see on a daily basis?

 

Second sentence - it's their f***ing problem, not ours, let them deal with it or let people like them deal with it, i.e., people from their side of the world who are more similar to them. Not Americans who literally have nothing in common and who will inevitably be viewed as being in the wrong (as he pointed out in a follow up post). Where the hell did he say "Let's those f***ers rot, just a bunch of brown muslim mother f***ers!!"

 

Does it make you feel good to call people racists or bigots? It really must because I seriously can't understand why you have to be THAT person every f***ing conversation on this board.

Edited August 30, 2013 by Jenksismybitch

[Jenksismyhero]

Yes, I got after him for viewing one human as less valuable than another simply based on their nationality. It's a disgusting attitude.

 

Yes, I got after him for viewing one human as less valuable than another because of their religion. It's also a disgusting attitude.

 

You still felt the need to spring to his defense, make up a bunch of dumb strawmen and then conveniently ignore the incredibly racist s*** he said.

 

 

 

Yes, I do believe that Alpha is racist. This is just the latest blatant example of his racism. That you still don't think somebody who said what he just said is racist is pretty sad.

 

WHERE DID HE SAY THEY WERE LESS VALUABLE?!!!!! Because he doesn't want Americans to put themselves in yet another costly war? Seriously?

Edited August 30, 2013 by Jenksismybitch

[Balta1701]

If a war has escalated to where both sides are willing to use chemical weapons, you pretty much have to commit occupying forces. Otherwise people are going to start building biological and chemical weapons again and that poses to great of a risk to all society.

 

You really have to respond disproportionately if it appears its going to continue to happen. Lets call a spade a spade, its not like I was saying much when 100k were killed in a regular civil war. But chemical weapons has to be a line in the sand...

So then let's just assume that we're unwilling to commit an Iraq-sized occupation force to Syria. Do you see how there are very few options here?

 

Syria is going to go through a decade long, maybe longer, civil war.

 

Both sides hold substantial territory. Taking territory from fighters in fortified positions usually requires losses of 5 to 10 times the number of defenders killed if the forces are evenly matched tecnhologically. Neither side has the kind of strength it will take to gain an advantage and will not do so for a long, long time. It's a stalemate that will gradually grind down, killing probably millions before it ends.

 

We even have experience with putting a substantial occupying force on the ground in a non-unified country in the Middle East like this, that's the exact thing that happened in Iraq to the letter, and our presence there wasn't enough to stop the slaughter of hundreds of thousands.

[Soxbadger]

Well Iraq is complicated because I was against attacking over WMD, but they then changed it to humanitarian so whatever. Anyways, civil wars are going to happen, the price of freedom is blood is going to happen.

 

But you have to set some sort of tangible consequence for chemical strikes. Otherwise why not keep using chemical weapons?

 

(edit)

 

I presume you agree that if a country nuked a civilian population there should be some consequence?

Edited August 30, 2013 by Soxbadger

[Jenksismyhero]

Let me put it this way.

 

I think that intervening in Syria sounds moronic. I can't think of a single way in which it will work out positively until we're prepared to put an occupying force in there.

 

And I would never in 4.56 billion years have thought to cite differences in "skin tone" as a reason why. It never would have crossed my mind. Not in any way, shape, or form.

 

Look, so long as he's saying let them deal with it because it's their problem, not ours, and by doing so pointing out the obvious fact that they are different people (physically, politically, socially, ethnically, etc) then I don't have a problem with what he said. I read his comment in that way because I don't have hard-on for calling people racists. If he didn't mean it that way, and he literally meant "i will never go to war or intervene in another country because they're not white," then I totally agree with you.

[Balta1701]

Well Iraq is complicated because I was against attacking over WMD, but they then changed it to humanitarian so whatever. Anyways, civil wars are going to happen, the price of freedom is blood is going to happen.

 

But you have to set some sort of tangible consequence for chemical strikes. Otherwise why not keep using chemical weapons?

 

(edit)

 

I presume you agree that if a country nuked a civilian population there should be some consequence?

Like the consequences suffered by the only country ever to use nuclear weapons on a civilian population?

 

Anyway, aside from that, coming up with consequences is a big part of the problem here.

 

We drew this red line and we did so with very little ability to back it up if anyone crossed it. There's no way to fight this war from the air right now because it literally is house to house, there's no simple way to target these weapons without dispersing them, the command and control systems in the country are a mess anyway because it's a civil war. It's darn near impossible to seriously degrade their capacity with a limited number of strikes, but why would they stop using them if the response is only a limited and controversial set of airstrikes?

[Soxbadger]

There is a certain irony that people dont want to intervene because its "not our problem". Well isnt that creating an inherent difference between us and them? If it happened in Ohio is it our problem? Chicago? Your backyard?

 

People are people, I dont want my govt using chemical weapons on me, I dont want it to ever by "my problem" as some of you would so eloquently state. But its "our" problem, because we are all humans, and fortunately or unfortunately, we all hold each others fates in our own hands.

[Soxbadger]

Like the consequences suffered by the only country ever to use nuclear weapons on a civilian population?

 

Anyway, aside from that, coming up with consequences is a big part of the problem here.

 

We drew this red line and we did so with very little ability to back it up if anyone crossed it. There's no way to fight this war from the air right now because it literally is house to house, there's no simple way to target these weapons without dispersing them, the command and control systems in the country are a mess anyway because it's a civil war. It's darn near impossible to seriously degrade their capacity with a limited number of strikes, but why would they stop using them if the response is only a limited and controversial set of airstrikes?

 

Well then I guess we just let them die and send some money and condolence cards.

 

Sorry, not our problem, but here is a bread basket.

[Balta1701]

Well then I guess we just let them die and send some money and condolence cards.

 

Sorry, not our problem, but here is a bread basket.

At least if we send enough bread baskets we'll keep some people alive. Missiles will not do that. That is literally the best of a bad series of options here. This civil war is going to happen and even 150,000 American soldiers on the ground wouldn't stop it. There are millions of people fleeing the fighting. Help them. There are millions more in jeopardy in the country's borders, help them as best as you can.

[Jenksismyhero]

Well then I guess we just let them die and send some money and condolence cards.

 

Sorry, not our problem, but here is a bread basket.

 

I don't get your extremism here. Atrocities are committed in China. Should we risk the lives of millions of Americans so we can save them? Same with NK? Or other countries around the world? At what point do you accept the fact that fixing X humanitarian problem is not worth X number of lives lost?

[StrangeSox]

Jesus. Look at what he said:

 

 

 

How is what I said different?

 

First sentence - they're not my friend, family or countrymen, so they're not as important to me. Is that really wrong? Seriously? What am I missing there? It's wrong to think complete strangers an entire world away are not as important as those you see on a daily basis?

 

You're already trying to pull the same crappy rhetorical shift that alpha did. My first response was that obviously you value friends and family above some random strangers, but you both keep trying to circle back around to that and ignoring the next part.

 

Yes, it is wrong to view one human as inherently more valuable than another simply based on their nationality.

 

Second sentence - it's their f***ing problem, not ours, let them deal with it or let people like them deal with it, i.e., people from their side of the world who are more similar to them. Not Americans who literally have nothing in common and who will inevitably be viewed as being in the wrong (as he pointed out in a follow up post). Where the hell did he say "Let's those f***ers rot, just a bunch of brown muslim mother f***ers!!"

 

He said it right in that post. Being humans, we have plenty in common with Syrians and there lives are no less valuable than yours or mine. Alpha wasn't making a libertarian isolationist argument. He went straight to nationalist, racism, and religious bigotry.

 

Which, in another way, highlights his ignorance and bigotry. He might want to look at Syrian demographics some time. There are plenty of non-brown and non-muslim people there. There's also plenty of non-brown and non-muslim people in America! But his instinct is to assume "Americans=white christians" and "Syrians=brown muslims."

 

Does it make you feel good to call people racists or bigots? It really must because I seriously can't understand why you have to be THAT person every f***ing conversation on this board.

 

Does it make you and Alpha feel good to say and defend racist and bigoted things? I seriously can't understand why you have to defend alpha's racist remarks.

 

[StrangeSox]

WHERE DID HE SAY THEY WERE LESS VALUABLE?!!!!! Because he doesn't want Americans to put themselves in yet another costly war? Seriously?

Go back to where this conversation started. Read alpha's words. They're very explicit.

 

They are worth less to me because they are not me, my family, my friends, my tribe (country). That whole area over there is messed up. There will need to be a lot more deaths before anything is even near being normal. Let them kill themselves and stay out of it. I just don't care enough to want to do anything. Somebody else can do it. Somebody closer. Somebody with the same religion or skin tone or ideals. Just not us.

 

He doesn't value their lives as highly as a random American life and thinks it's a brown-muslim-people's problem to deal with because Syrians are a bunch of brown muslims. You inexplicably don't find this racist.

 

[greg775]

Sad dose of reality ... should the U.S. just say we'd like to respond with bombs but we fricking can't afford it. Our government is about to be shut down again unless it's bailed out. We are in trouble HERE, folks, chemical weapons and atrocities to human kind aside for a moment.

[Balta1701]

Sad dose of reality ... should the U.S. just say we'd like to respond with bombs but we fricking can't afford it. Our government is about to be shut down again unless it's bailed out. We are in trouble HERE, folks, chemical weapons and atrocities to human kind aside for a moment.

No, the U.S. should not say "We'd like to respond with bombs" because every time anyone sneezes around the world the U.S.'s response is "We'd like to respond with bombs" and responding with bombs tends to kill people and be a human atrocity.

[iamshack]

Go back to where this conversation started. Read alpha's words. They're very explicit.

 

 

 

He doesn't value their lives as highly as a random American life and thinks it's a brown-muslim-people's problem to deal with because Syrians are a bunch of brown muslims. You inexplicably don't find this racist.

I think at this point many of you can predict what the others will say before they say it, and yet there is this moral outrage from you, as if you're struck incredulous every new day with some of these beliefs. I think that is the nerve you're standing on more than the actual criticisms you're making.

 

Don't get me wrong, sometimes I'm shaking my head in here too, but do we really need to go through all the dramatics each and every time something like what Alpha posted is posted? You do know that half the time, he's trying to get a rise out of you, right?

 

Ultimately, I kind of agree with Alpha. Not because I'm racist, but because I'm tired. Humanity is a species just like all the other species on earth. There is some percentage of us that is just made up of f***ing lunatics. We can't waste an incredible amount of limited resources trying to make these lunatics behave like the higher-thinking beings they probably should be behaving as. Over the course of evolution on this planet, the universe's answer to these idiots is to allow them to kill themselves and stop spreading their genes amongst the gene pool. Is it harsh? Of course. But can we really afford to be intervening in this nonsense in every instance at this stage of the game? I think we all know what the answer to that question is.

[StrangeSox]

The problem with that s***ty reasoning is that the overwhelming majority of Syrian people (or any other group of people caught in the middle of a violent struggle) are not "lunatics" who we should be happy are eliminated from the gene pool.

 

edit: That discussion wasn't about whether or not the US should intervene. It started with me saying that the lives of Syrians are no less valuable than the lives of Americans. Alpha then made the argument that, yes, they are because they're not Americans, and if someone is going to help them, it should be people who look like them and are the same religion. That's bigoted and ignorant in its own right, assuming Americans are a monolith of white christians and Syrians are a monolith of brown muslims.

Edited August 30, 2013 by StrangeSox