Syria

[Soxbadger]

Its not our job, its our choice.

 

That is why it is great to be an American, we have the choice to help other people.

 

There is an irony in your post. In 1939 people were saying that we should leave Europe alone because "they'll get sick of killing each other eventually if left to their own devices. Not our job to do it for them and American lives are not to be wasted to help them."

 

Today those men and women who sacrificed their lives for Europeans are considered some of the greatest heroes in American history. People like my great uncle, who died at Normandy, who fought because sometimes helping other people is the right thing to do.

 

Isolationism will never fly with me, I will not let my family down like that. They have given to much, I will honor their sacrifice in trying to make the world a better place.

[StrangeSox]

OTOH we should always be weary of international interventionism because that leads to incredibly dumb things like Korea, Vietnam and Iraq.

[Jenksismyhero]

Its not our job, its our choice.

 

That is why it is great to be an American, we have the choice to help other people.

 

There is an irony in your post. In 1939 people were saying that we should leave Europe alone because "they'll get sick of killing each other eventually if left to their own devices. Not our job to do it for them and American lives are not to be wasted to help them."

 

Today those men and women who sacrificed their lives for Europeans are considered some of the greatest heroes in American history. People like my great uncle, who died at Normandy, who fought because sometimes helping other people is the right thing to do.

 

Isolationism will never fly with me, I will not let my family down like that. They have given to much, I will honor their sacrifice in trying to make the world a better place.

 

The Axis taking over the world had a direct impact on our security and our future prospects globally. An ass-backwards country in the middle east does not.

[Soxbadger]

OTOH we should always be weary of international interventionism because that leads to incredibly dumb things like Korea, Vietnam and Iraq.

 

Of course, we should be judicious about our resources. But if there is genocide, etc, I believe that it is a good use of our resources to stop it.

 

The Axis taking over the world had a direct impact on our security and our future prospects globally. An ass-backwards country in the middle east does not.

 

Not really. Had the US wanted it could have likely struck a deal with Germany and Japan, where the US would not get involved.

 

The simple fact is that in 1939 people were saying the exact same thing as Duke. You cant change history, the US participation in WWII was not immediate and both Germany/Japan declared war on the US. If it was entirely about security and taking over the world, the US would have gotten involved as soon as France fell and Western Europe was on the brink.

[Jenksismyhero]

Of course, we should be judicious about our resources. But if there is genocide, etc, I believe that it is a good use of our resources to stop it.

 

 

 

Not really. Had the US wanted it could have likely struck a deal with Germany and Japan, where the US would not get involved.

 

The simple fact is that in 1939 people were saying the exact same thing as Duke. You cant change history, the US participation in WWII was not immediate and both Germany/Japan declared war on the US. If it was entirely about security and taking over the world, the US would have gotten involved as soon as France fell and Western Europe was on the brink.

 

Where's the evidence for that? Hitler wanted to take over the world. He had plans of invading the US. He wanted the world, not just Europe.

 

But that still doesn't address the scope of the differences. You're comparing apples and oranges.

[Soxbadger]

Where's the evidence for that? Hitler wanted to take over the world. He had plans of invading the US. He wanted the world, not just Europe.

 

But that still doesn't address the scope of the differences. You're comparing apples and oranges.

 

http://www.history.com/this-day-in-history...itler-for-peace

 

The evidence is that Hitler was willing to cut deals with every country who would capitulate. He cut deals with England, France, Russia, etc.

 

FDR then assured Hitler that the U.S. would remain neutral regarding European politics, but that America recognized a responsibility to be involved "as part of a world of neighbors."

 

 

And you are right, WWII is greater than Syria. But every person matters. Its just like saying "Well killing Jews doesnt matter because there were only a few million of them, we should be concerned with bigger problems"

 

Doesnt work for me. I guess I dont have a good number for when we should start caring.

[DukeNukeEm]

Its not our job, its our choice.

 

That is why it is great to be an American, we have the choice to help other people.

 

There is an irony in your post. In 1939 people were saying that we should leave Europe alone because "they'll get sick of killing each other eventually if left to their own devices. Not our job to do it for them and American lives are not to be wasted to help them."

 

Today those men and women who sacrificed their lives for Europeans are considered some of the greatest heroes in American history. People like my great uncle, who died at Normandy, who fought because sometimes helping other people is the right thing to do.

 

Isolationism will never fly with me, I will not let my family down like that. They have given to much, I will honor their sacrifice in trying to make the world a better place.

You gloss over the part where we went to war with Germany and Japan because we were attacked. If Syria sneaks around the ocean and bombs Hawaii damn right we should teach them a lesson they'll never forget.

 

Europeans eventually did get sick of killing each other, and its not because the US opened up a late second front against under supplied German conscripts. It's because they blew up their continent and they realized how stupid and pointless it was. We've tried saving Middle Eastern people the pain of that lesson, they didn't want the help. They want kill each other. Let them, they'll learn the way Europe did.

 

[Soxbadger]

I didnt gloss over that part. That is the whole premise of the point.

 

That I wont let the US wait around while people are being massacred.

 

The reason Europeans stopped fighting each other has nothing to do with the casualties of WWII, and has everything to do with the fact that after WWII, Europe no longer had any power that could individually contend against USA or USSR, and thus they could not start a war when there was risk of intervention by a superior opponent.

 

Had nothing to do with them getting tired of war. War is the natural state of humanity, humans will never get tired of war. Europe hasnt learned anything. If they did, then why after WWII did they immediately start fighting in Asia?

 

Would stand to reason that they would end all wars, not just move the battlefield to Korea and Vietnam.

Edited March 21, 2013 by Soxbadger

[StrangeSox]

If they didn't get tired of war after the atrocities and meaninglessness of WWI, or the centuries of war prior to that...

 

 

edit: Duke seems unaware of millions of Syrians who are neither the Syrian government or the rebel forces.

Edited March 21, 2013 by StrangeSox

[DukeNukeEm]

If they didn't get tired of war after the atrocities and meaninglessness of WWI, or the centuries of war prior to that...

 

 

edit: Duke seems unaware of millions of Syrians who are neither the Syrian government or the rebel forces.

World War II destroyed their cities, that was a major difference.

 

I'm aware of other Syrians. Sucks for them, its not our responsiblity, its not our war, its not our f***ing country. They have to fix these problems themselves if they want it to get any better, it cant just be a waiting game until the US and its pets inevitably get involved. That accomplishes nothing for us and it does nothing to serve Syria's long term interests.

 

Wah wah wah we cant stand idly by while innocent *cry cry* <holocaust reference> what if we didnt stop Hitler (help people plz). Not our job, it never has been, every time some dictators acts like a piece of s*** around the world we cant be the police officer. We cant afford it, we dont see any gain anyways so even if we could afford it wouldn't accomplish anything.

[Soxbadger]

Its fine that you have that opinion, its America, you are entitled to be the guy who says "The US shouldnt have stopped Hitler."

 

Some people are selfless, some people are selfish.

 

Just because you want the US to be the latter, doesnt mean I cant want the US to be the former.

[DukeNukeEm]

Its fine that you have that opinion, its America, you are entitled to be the guy who says "The US shouldnt have stopped Hitler."

 

Some people are selfless, some people are selfish.

 

Just because you want the US to be the latter, doesnt mean I cant want the US to be the former.

We should have stopped Hitler because his ally bombed a naval base and killed a few thousand Americans. Then Hitler, the next day, declared war on us which meant inevitable U-Boat attacks on American ships. That's justification for war, being attacked and having someone else declaring war on you.

 

Being selfless is not justification for war.

[StrangeSox]

But, had Japan not attacked us, you'd be cool with him just doing his thing in Europe?

[DukeNukeEm]

But, had Japan not attacked us, you'd be cool with him just doing his thing in Europe?

Let's skip for a second the idea that the Nazi's very well could've lost had we not gotten involved anyways. Or that it was a matter of when and not if we got dragged into that war (Japan had to force us out of the Pacific and unrestricted submarine warfare was going to bring us in sooner or later).

 

Should we have invaded the USSR under Stalin? China? Mao and Stalin were worse than Hitler you know. Or would those wars have been one of those "uncomfortable" wars where all the 18 year olds on your block dont come home and you cant buy chocolate? Too much hardship to bear to save those ~80 million people.

 

However if the government can mitigate the impact of being at war at home by borrowing money and only killing a few thousand (as opposed to a few hundred thousand) American kids it'll seem like a no-cost all-benefit joyride where we get to blow s*** up, save some people and come home rockstars. We tried it. It failed. Let them burn whats left of their "civilization" to the ground.

Edited March 22, 2013 by DukeNukeEm

[Balta1701]

The Pentagon is sending about 200 troops to Jordan, the vanguard of a potential U.S. military force of 20,000 or more that could be deployed if the Obama administration decides to intervene in Syria to secure chemical weapons arsenals or to prevent the 2-year-old civil war from spilling into neighboring nations.

 

Troops from the 1st Armored Division will establish a small headquarters near Jordan's border with Syria to help deliver humanitarian supplies for a growing flood of refugees and to plan for possible military operations, including a rapid buildup of American forces if the White House decides intervention is necessary, senior U.S. officials said.

 

Although the Pentagon has sent Patriot missile batteries to Turkey and several dozen U.S. troops already are in Jordan to assist with aid flights and other operations, the move marks the first deployment that Pentagon officials explicitly described as a possible step toward direct military involvement in Syria.

 

Defense Secretary Chuck Hagel, who disclosed the deployment Wednesday in testimony before the Senate Armed Services Committee, made clear that both he and President Obama remained deeply wary of intervening in Syria just as U.S. forces are trying to withdraw from 12 years of war in Afghanistan.

 

But U.S. officials say they have stepped up preparations because the Syrian civil war shows few signs of abating, and a political settlement that includes the departure of President Bashar Assad appears increasingly unlikely.

 

"Military intervention is always an option, but it should be an option of last resort," Hagel said. He warned that a major deployment could "embroil the U.S. in a significant, lengthy and uncertain military commitment."

LAT

[cabiness42]

http://www.cnn.com/2013/04/25/world/meast/...pt=hp_inthenews

 

The United States has evidence that the chemical weapon sarin has been used in Syria on a small scale, Defense Secretary Chuck Hagel said Thursday.

 

But numerous questions remain about the origins of the chemicals and what impact their apparent use could have on the ongoing Syrian civil war and international involvement in it.

 

When asked if the intelligence community's conclusion pushed the situation across President Barack Obama's "red line" that could potentially trigger more U.S. involvement in the Syrian civil war, Hagel said U.S. officials are still assessing the situation and need all the facts.

[Balta1701]

Historic 11th century Minaret in Aleppo (UN World Heritage site) destroyed.

[Balta1701]

President Obama is preparing to send lethal weaponry to the Syrian opposition and has taken steps to assert more aggressive U.S. leadership among allies and partners seeking the ouster of President Bashar al-Assad, according to senior administration officials.

Link.

[Balta1701]

Israel launched airstrikes within Syria today.

[knightni]

Israel bombed Syria again. Hitting labs and weapons areas where they were sending munitions to Hezbollah.

[Quin]

I don't like the Middle East.

[southsider2k5]

I don't like the Middle East.

 

The Middle East doesn't like the Middle East.

[Reddy]

The Middle East doesn't like the Middle East.

 

so why don't we just let THEM deal with it and come up with our own energy source?

 

*sigh*

[Balta1701]

UN Says that the Sarin was most likely used by the rebels against government forces.

[Balta1701]

The White House has now, today, officially declared that they conclude Syria has, on a limited basis, deployed chemical weapons against the rebels.

 

The U.S. will be sharing these results with the U.N. missions that have been monitoring the Syrian conflict.

 

As a consequence, the White House indicates that the U.S. will now be significantly increasing its aid to the Syrian rebels. According to statements from the office of the National Security Adviser, that aid will include military support.