Reports: Illini hire John Groce

[IlliniKrush]

I think the point is that Illinois is at best top tier in the Big 10. Any coach that comes into Illinois is going to have a challenge because right now the Big 10 is one of the deepest leagues with some of the best coaches. If you want to believe Illinois is a top 5 program nationally, that really is your choice. But those type of expectations are why the next coach will fail in Illini fans eyes just like Weber.

This coming from the guy that hates when other people put words in HIS mouth.

 

Nice.

[GoodAsGould]

I think the point is that Illinois is at best top tier in the Big 10. Any coach that comes into Illinois is going to have a challenge because right now the Big 10 is one of the deepest leagues with some of the best coaches. If you want to believe Illinois is a top 5 program nationally, that really is your choice. But those type of expectations are why the next coach will fail in Illini fans eyes just like Weber.

 

Where did anyone say Illinois was top5. I think most fans would say 10-15 range and given the talent available in state I agree with that. The program should be making the dance on a yearly basis and really should be winning 2 plus games once making it most years.

[Soxbadger]

lol

[bigruss]

Where did anyone say Illinois was top5. I think most fans would say 10-15 range and given the talent available in state I agree with that. The program should be making the dance on a yearly basis and really should be winning 2 plus games once making it most years.

Pretty much the same was Wiscy/OSU/MSU, which I think is fair.

[Soxbadger]

You know if you guys are going to get nit picky about nonsense, I was remarking about what was in his post:

 

- Basketball Reference has us as the 5th best program in the last 30 years.

- Forbes has us as the 5th most valuable program.

 

I never said he believed it, I said if YOU (meaning anyone wants to believe IL is a top 5) that is their opinion and nothing I can say or do will change that.

 

Its not worth arguing about, because quite frankly the idea of rating a program is impossible and completely subjective.

 

[IlliniKrush]

You were talking to me. When you say "you", how am I supposed to interpret that?

 

You were the one that nitpicked.

[Soxbadger]

I really dont care about this because its entirely subjective. I read your post and was shocked that Illinois was rated #5 in value and wanted to read the Forbes article to see how they came to that conclusion (didnt make sense based on how teams are normally valuated.) Then when I did a search "Forbes NCAA team values" the results were quite different. I still think that their methodology is off, but it did seem to make more sense (although I still have to believe MSU is more valuable than Wisconsin).

 

The part about top 5 wasnt to imply you thought it, it was to show that I dont care if you think they are the #1 team, its your opinion and its not like you can go to a stat to prove otherwise. If it seemed like I meant you thought they were top 5, well that wasnt the intent. I never asked what you thought they were, so I really had no idea, thus why the 5 was relating to the article that I investigated and then some of the Illini websites that were saying Illinois was top 5 value.

[IlliniKrush]

I don't really put a ton of value on the Forbes thing either. Like you said it's subjective. But wins and losses and those sorts of rankings aren't.

 

My overall point is that Illinois should be around a 15 program semi-consistently (maybe sometimes better, maybe sometimes worse). They have the talent base, fans, resources, etc to do so. They should be making the tournament basically every year and a sweet 16 one of every 3 or so. I don't think that's unreasonable.

 

So, we shouldn't have to settle for mediocrity or a mediocre coach. No reason to. They have to break the f***ing bank with this hire, unless they offer the money and those guys say no. Aka Smart, Stevens. If they say no fine, but you go for broke here in every way possible.

 

Like I said, people didn't say "well IU is mediocre now, that's how it'll be." They knew they'd be back. Now before you all point at your f***ing dusty banners, it's just a comparison on a team being down and coming back to their expected level. It's the first one I came up with.

 

BTW, you said the coach "will fail in Illini fans eyes just like Weber."

 

Are you implying the last 6 years have been successful under him?

Edited March 13, 2012 by IlliniKrush

[Soxbadger]

Illinois should make the tournament every year, and Im pretty sure that will happen consistently even if you hired a no name.

[Soxbadger]

Weber was put in a screwed position because of inheriting Self's team. I honestly believe that had Weber not had to try and be Self, and instead just put out Weber style products Illinois makes the tournament every year like Wisconsin. The problem though is that he needed to somehow recruit better than Dee Brown, Williams and Head and that just was a pretty impossible task.

 

Thats what I meant by that comment.

[Chisoxfn]

Alright, I've had enough with the Illinois isn't a top/elite/very good/whatever the hell you want to call it program. BTW Jason don't ever put Iowa basketball and Illinois basketball, historically, in the same sentence again. You're better than that.

 

From http://alioneye.com/

 

- #13 all time in the NCAA in wins (#12 in winning percentage).

- #11 (tied) all time in NCAA Tourney appearances (2nd in the Big Ten).

- #18 in NCAA Tournament wins (famously most wins for a team without a title)

- #14 (tied) all time in Final Four appearances (tied for the 8th highest total number of appearances)

- #9 all time in collective AP poll appearances (including: #13 in weeks in the top 5, #9 in weeks in the top 10, #8 in seasons in the top 5, #9 in seasons in the top 10, #8 in seasons in the top 25)

- 1st all-time in Big Ten conference wins (3rd in winning percentage)

- 4th highest number of Big Ten titles in the conference

- 6 more Big Ten Tournament wins than any other school, highest number (tied) of championship game appearances, 2nd in Tourney titles

- We own winning records against every Big Ten program except two. Indiana has us beat by 1 game. Purdue is up by 11 games.

- Tied for #18 all-time in number of McDonald’s All-Americans (I only mention this as a point that it’s also folly to suggest it’s unreasonable to expect consistent high-level recruiting, either).

- Sagarin/ESPN has us at #6 all time.

- NBC Sports puts us at #14.

- Basketball Reference has us as the 5th best program in the last 30 years.

- Forbes has us as the 5th most valuable program.

 

Just take the first five. 13th in all-time wins, 11th in all-time tournament appearances, 18th in all-time tournament wins (with the top-17 all owning at least one NCAA title), 14th in all-time Final Four appearances, and 9th in all-time AP Poll appearances. Add that all together, and you get “at worst 14th, and possibly 12th best college basketball program.”

As an FYI, Sagarin has Iowa 4 slots below Illinois in his all time collegiate rankings. These rankings are a little old (e.g., from 2009), however, Iowa is ranked 10th vs. Illionis being 6th. Either way, neither program is currently even close to being a top 10 program in this country. Iowa has a very very strong history in college basketball and have had quite a few very good teams and multiple final 4 appearances. They are not in the class of some of the elite schools in the country though and while there program had clout, they have digressed significantly since Dr. Tom and until someone restores the program they will remain a lesser tier school in basketball (hopefully Fran is that guy).

 

http://assets.espn.go.com/photo/2009/1004/cbe1.pdf

[Heads22]

That has UCONN 54th All-Time, so I'll take that ranking with a grain of salt as far as level of prestige.

[Chisoxfn]

That has UCONN 54th All-Time, so I'll take that ranking with a grain of salt as far as level of prestige.

UCONN is rated so low because for a long time they weren't a meaningful program. The problem is, to a large extent, what matters is what you have done in the past 10 years. The overall ratings factor the lifetime of a program but recruits care about what has happened now (or pretty recently) in most instances. Very few programs can get away without that (e.g., a Notre Dame in football, who despite falling, still gets ton of air time, etc).

 

The reality is Iowa has stunk the past 10 years as a program and as such, no one remembers when they were consistently playing in the tourney and playing into the sweet 16. Illinois at least has had more recent success but clearly Uconn is far more relevant of a program now. All time, I'd still argue Uconn is better because they've won what counts a couple times (National Championships).

 

Note: If you look at top programs by decade, you will see Uconn ranked 6th in the 1990's and 9th in the 2000-2009 range. Which is pretty accurate given that is when the program became most relevant.

[Jenksismyhero]

It's historical. UCONN was nothing until the last 20 years. I don't understand why people can't read that list (and the summary of the list) and understand that.

 

Illinois is a top 15 job. Anyone that thinks otherwise is out of their mind. From the recruiting base to the fans to the tradition. There are a select few powerhouse programs (UNC, Duke, Kentucky, etc), and then there's the level just underneath and Illinois is there. Funny that people point to the last 5-6 years to prove how average they've been, yet they ignore the decade before that, when they won 5 conference titles in an 8 year period.

Edited March 13, 2012 by Jenksismybitch

[Chisoxfn]

It's historical. UCONN was nothing until the last 20 years. I don't understand why people can't read that list (and the summary of the list) and understand that.

 

Illinois is a top 15 job. Anyone that thinks otherwise is out of their mind. From the recruiting base to the fans to the tradition. There are a select few powerhouse programs (UNC, Duke, Kentucky, etc), and then there's the level just underneath and Illinois is there. Funny that people point to the last 5-6 years to prove how average they've been, yet they ignore the decade before that, when they won 5 conference titles in an 8 year period.

With a good coach, you are a top 20 program. I don't disagree with that. However, new programs have emerged and stepped in as well. For example, the Uconn's of the world. Teams like Arizona as well (although we still have to see how they do without Lute and if they can continue there recent success).

[Heads22]

It's historical. UCONN was nothing until the last 20 years. I don't understand why people can't read that list (and the summary of the list) and understand that.

 

Illinois is a top 15 job. Anyone that thinks otherwise is out of their mind. From the recruiting base to the fans to the tradition. There are a select few powerhouse programs (UNC, Duke, Kentucky, etc), and then there's the level just underneath and Illinois is there. Funny that people point to the last 5-6 years to prove how average they've been, yet they ignore the decade before that, when they won 5 conference titles in an 8 year period.

 

 

I concur that it's a top 15 job.

 

The problem with the last part is that when recruiting, looking for a new coach, etc., you can't just ignore the last few years. Recruits may not remember 2005 for you guys.

[Balta1701]

The problem with the last part is that when recruiting, looking for a new coach, etc., you can't just ignore the last few years. Recruits may not remember 2005 for you guys.

If Indiana can come back from their black hole, Illinois can come back, you just need to both make sure you have quality facilties and have coaches who understand the position they're starting at.

[Chisoxfn]

If Indiana can come back from their black hole, Illinois can come back, you just need to both make sure you have quality facilties and have coaches who understand the position they're starting at.

Indiana is a more legendary program than Illinois but I agree. All of the major big 10 programs have a lot of resources so if they have the right coach, they should be able to excel. I personally look forward to seeing what Iowa can do now that they finally have invested some resources into the basketball program.

[Jenksismyhero]

If Indiana can come back from their black hole, Illinois can come back, you just need to both make sure you have quality facilties and have coaches who understand the position they're starting at.

 

And Illinois isn't in the same boat as Indiana. Illinois still has talent and they've got some guys already committed. They just need a coach that can relate to that talent and maximize it. Next year is going to be rough, especially with Leonard gone, but they should still be a tourney team.

 

My dream scenario is whatever new coach (Stevens/Smart/Marshall), Smith from Simeon as an assistant, Howard as an assistant, and whoever else the new guy wants to bring. That's more of a transition than the straight up rebuild.

[GoodAsGould]

And Illinois isn't in the same boat as Indiana. Illinois still has talent and they've got some guys already committed. They just need a coach that can relate to that talent and maximize it. Next year is going to be rough, especially with Leonard gone, but they should still be a tourney team.

 

My dream scenario is whatever new coach (Stevens/Smart/Marshall), Smith from Simeon as an assistant, Howard as an assistant, and whoever else the new guy wants to bring. That's more of a transition than the straight up rebuild.

 

Smith I think has already stated he wants to be head coach only, no interest as an assistant. But, obviously people don't always say the truth publicly... and with Smith/Howard as part of the staff you should be bringing in all the talent instate.

[Jenksismyhero]

Apparently Howard has said he'd stay on as an assistant, so that's good.

[bigruss]

Apparently Howard has said he'd stay on as an assistant, so that's good.

Smartest choice for him at this point in his career. He's most likely not ready for a HC position and being an assistant at Illinois gives him great options going forward. Hopefully the new coach can develop a good relationship with him.

[CanOfCorn]

With a good coach, you are a top 20 program. I don't disagree with that. However, new programs have emerged and stepped in as well. For example, the Uconn's of the world. Teams like Arizona as well (although we still have to see how they do without Lute and if they can continue there recent success).

 

I totally agree, but Illinois has been good to great in every decade, no matter who the coach has been. UConn without Calhoun...who knows? Is Duke going to make it past Coach K? I wouldn't even mind bringing in an Ernie Kent...someone who is older and may retire sooner rather than later and have Howard as the coach-in-waiting.

 

Honestly, at this point, I'd rather see a Tom Crean-like hire. Not a mid-major coach, but a coach from a major college that wants to be in the Big Ten. Not sure who that would be, though. I guess Anthony Grant would be closed to that scenario.

[LittleHurt05]

Thanks for 2004-2005 Bruce. First the recruiting was the problem, then it was the recruits not playing up to their talent levelm either way it wasn't meant to be. His highest seeded team after Dee left may have been his least talented team which is kind of telling.

 

Go Wichita State! I want VCU out and Shaka Smart headed to Champaign tonight. No guarantee it works out with him, but he is the best realistic option out there.

[Jenksismyhero]

Rumor has it that Shaka has a plane ticket purchased to Chicago for Friday night to see Jabari Parker play if VCU loses.*

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

*rumor created by me.