Sun-Times: Trades Will Happen Soon if Sox Fail

[Marty34]

Please, enlighten us then, and actually support it rather than repeating the same thing over and over.

 

You've been wrong at least as many times as I've been, Mr. $27M man.

[max power]

Harsh. But I'm sticking with liar.

I should have said I was only speaking from what you had posted.

[Balta1701]

You've been wrong at least as many times as I've been, Mr. $27M man.

Fine, you want to call me out? Here's my statement.

$27 million comes off the books in Peavy and Pierzynski next offseason. You're telling me you can't upgrade a roster given $27 million?

 

Peavy and Pierzynski come off the books next year saving $27 million. There are other things that expand slightly, but this statement is correct. Your statement that John Danks is getting paid $2 million this year? That statement was wrong. Peavy and Pierzynski are paid $27 million this year and that money comes off the books. That statement is true. I was willing to let it slide, but you want to be a *****, fine, I'll get technical on you.

[Marty34]

Fine, you want to call me out? Here's my statement.

 

 

Peavy and Pierzynski come off the books next year saving $27 million. There are other things that expand slightly, but this statement is correct. Your statement that John Danks is getting paid $2 million this year? That statement was wrong. Peavy and Pierzynski are paid $27 million this year and that money comes off the books. That statement is true. I was willing to let it slide, but you want to be a *****, fine, I'll get technical on you.

 

You can get as technical on me as you want. You're wrong on this and you're wrong on the idea that this is a rebuilding year. If indeed you think it's rebuilding year you are completely misreading the Chicago market.

[caulfield12]

It's rebuilding for the team and organization, but financially, the White Sox can't easily afford to give that perception.

 

That's why KW walked back that "rebuilding" phrase the first time it came out of his mouth.

 

Rebuild usually means 2-3 years.

 

White Sox fans historically haven't had that much patience.

 

Even if the team is a failure this season, they can cut another $20 million from the payroll in 2013 and be roughly in the same spot competitively.

 

The fact is, if the Tigers become a superpower/dynasty type of team the next couple of years, the White Sox have little choice but to position themselves to compete in 2014-2015 and hit the spending/timing of that cycle exactly perfectly.

 

 

[SoxAce]

Fine, you want to call me out? Here's my statement.

 

 

Peavy and Pierzynski come off the books next year saving $27 million. There are other things that expand slightly, but this statement is correct. Your statement that John Danks is getting paid $2 million this year? That statement was wrong. Peavy and Pierzynski are paid $27 million this year and that money comes off the books. That statement is true. I was willing to let it slide, but you want to be a *****, fine, I'll get technical on you.

 

Wow.. rare you see Balta showing some fire in his post.

[Balta1701]

You can get as technical on me as you want. You're wrong on this and you're wrong on the idea that this is a rebuilding year. If indeed you think it's rebuilding year you are completely misreading the Chicago market.

What the Hell do you mean by misreading the Chicago Market? The team can't say it's a rebuilding year, but they have cut $30 million from the team's payroll, hired a cheap/rookie manager, traded away a couple key players for minor leaguers, and let one of the guys who will get an outfield statue leave for a ridiculous contract from Miami.

 

If that's not rebuilding then there's no such thing as rebuilding. The only thing they're not doing is saying it, because there's still that 5% shot everything will go right and they will compete for that 2nd wild card.

[caulfield12]

The only argument we're not rebuilding this entire offseason is re-signing John Danks.

 

That's it.

 

And not trading away Thornton, Floyd, Crain, etc.

[Balta1701]

The only argument we're not rebuilding this entire offseason is re-signing John Danks.

 

That's it.

 

And not trading away Thornton, Floyd, Crain, etc.

But take a look at what we did...everyone who was a free agent at the end of 2012 was dealt with. That was Danks and Quentin. We removed several veterans to give rookies shots. We're going into spring training with more bullpen vacancies than we've had any year I can remember, at least since before 04. We're in a position where there is no one we "Must" deal at the end of next year or at the deadline this year, there's no one we must extend before the end of the year, and we cleared room for every kid in the org who has earned a chance.

 

That's rebuilding. We didn't dump everything to try to hold a remote chance of winning, but development is the single goal this year.

[Marty34]

What the Hell do you mean by misreading the Chicago Market? The team can't say it's a rebuilding year, but they have cut $30 million from the team's payroll, hired a cheap/rookie manager, traded away a couple key players for minor leaguers, and let one of the guys who will get an outfield statue leave for a ridiculous contract from Miami.

 

If that's not rebuilding then there's no such thing as rebuilding. The only thing they're not doing is saying it, because there's still that 5% shot everything will go right and they will compete for that 2nd wild card.

 

The rebuilding will be signified by a new GM.

 

[Balta1701]

The rebuilding will be signified by a new GM.

 

Yeah. That's when we'll do things like start clearing space for veterans or trading whoever our closer is for some pitcher who has barely made AA.

[Marty34]

 

Yeah. That's when we'll do things like start clearing space for veterans or trading whoever our closer is for some pitcher who has barely made AA.

 

You don't understand the lack of confidence that Sox fans have in the Kenny Williams regime.

[caulfield12]

If there was no 2005, everyone would agree with you, Marty.

 

He would never have lasted this long, not through the last 3 years, and realistically, the Twins choked away 2008 to us, although we had to go out and win those last three games.

 

What rebuilding can there possibly be next year? Peavy will be gone. Doing a Zambrano/Volstad trade and eating all of Dunn or Rios' salaries? Any intern could come in and do that. Luz Garcia from Orgullosox.com could do that.

 

Realistically, the only position that's completely up for grabs in 2013 is catcher.

 

Other than that, the pieces are mostly in place.

 

The only question is what we can get back for Floyd and Thornton, how much we have to eat to get rid of AJ and whether to trade Ramirez and Konerko.

 

And realistically, we don't even need a GM to decide those last 2, in all probability, JR will make those decisions if we were to hire a new GM.

 

The new GM would be like Hoyer to JR's Epstein.

[Balta1701]

You don't understand the lack of confidence that Sox fans have in the Kenny Williams regime.

You don't understand that:

 

1. Virtually no one buys tickets based on the GM

2. Virtually no one ever has confidence in a team's GM, especially in Chicago. Bulls have the best record in the league and Forman gets ripped for standing pat.

3. People had "lost confidence in KW" in 2004, 2008, and many other times too.

4. Kenny Williams's job security right now has to hang on where Viciedo, Molina, Castro, Beckham, and a couple others are in 2-3 years.

[caulfield12]

You don't understand that:

 

1. Virtually no one buys tickets based on the GM

2. Virtually no one ever has confidence in a team's GM, especially in Chicago. Bulls have the best record in the league and Forman gets ripped for standing pat.

3. People had "lost confidence in KW" in 2004, 2008, and many other times too.

4. Kenny Williams's job security right now has to hang on where Viciedo, Molina, Castro, Beckham, and a couple others are in 2-3 years.

 

 

Milkman and Marty, although I don't think Marty pays for season tickets, regardless.

 

Dick Allen, perhaps. But isn't he sticking it out this year?

 

The fans at Applebee's in Lawrence are getting fed up with KW playing his son in spring training games, though.

 

 

[Marty34]

Milkman and Marty, although I don't think Marty pays for season tickets, regardless.

 

What makes you think I don't pay for season tickets?

 

It's beyond ridiculous to think that a failing GM has no effect on ticket sales.

 

[caulfield12]

What makes you think I don't pay for season tickets?

 

It's beyond ridiculous to think that a failing GM has no effect on ticket sales.

 

 

Just a feeling.

 

Even if Hahn was the GM this year, a 14-22 start would destroy any "bounce" we got out of a regime change.

 

Heck, you can argue that nobody shows up to a White Sox game because of who the manager is, but I'm sure a few VOLUBLE posters would disagree and argue Ozzie's departure is costing 100,000 in attendance, with nothing scientific to back it up.

[Marty34]

Just a feeling.

 

Even if Hahn was the GM this year, a 14-22 start would destroy any "bounce" we got out of a regime change.

 

Heck, you can argue that nobody shows up to a White Sox game because of who the manager is, but I'm sure a few VOLUBLE posters would disagree and argue Ozzie's departure is costing 100,000 in attendance, with nothing scientific to back it up.

 

What would you guess Williams approval rating is among Sox fans?

[Balta1701]

What makes you think I don't pay for season tickets?

 

It's beyond ridiculous to think that a failing GM has no effect on ticket sales.

Of course a failing one does, because people don't go to see a losing team unless its at Wrigley. But weve already eroded the ticket sales plenty by losing the last couple years...and keeping around Guillen couldn't save that.

 

Win games and people will show. We're not expecting to win games so we cut $30 million in payroll to avoid losing money while rebuilding.

[Marty34]

Of course a failing one does, because people don't go to see a losing team unless its at Wrigley. But weve already eroded the ticket sales plenty by losing the last couple years...and keeping around Guillen couldn't save that.

 

Win games and people will show. We're not expecting to win games so we cut $30 million in payroll to avoid losing money while rebuilding.

 

With a $90M+ payroll I guarantee you White Sox ownership isn't rebuilding. They could draw roughly the same with a $60m payroll.

[caulfield12]

What would you guess Williams approval rating is among Sox fans?

 

 

About the same as all the GOP presidential candidates, minus Ron Paul.

 

25-35% approval.

 

You'd probably get the same exact numbers for Ozzie Guillen, too.

 

 

[Marty34]

About the same as all the GOP presidential candidates, minus Ron Paul.

 

25-35% approval.

 

You'd probably get the same exact numbers for Ozzie Guillen, too.

 

Right. Ozzie is gone.

[caulfield12]

With a $90M+ payroll I guarantee you White Sox ownership isn't rebuilding. They could draw roughly the same with a $60m payroll.

 

 

Take Konerko off this team, with the economic recovery still fragile and casual fans watching their wallets, and we're losing 250K in attendance and finishing with 64-70 wins.

 

Now whether we'd "break even" at that number and minus Konerko/Thornton/Crain/AJ/Floyd....versus our current payroll, that's a good question.

 

But morale-wise, JR's not willing to go there at this point in his life. Parting with Buehrle is one thing, as well as Guillen.

 

 

Marty, I choose not to partake in another Ozzie argument. The counter-argument is that another team wanted him, same with Walker. Who's to say another owner wouldn't want to hire KW?

Edited March 18, 2012 by caulfield12

[Cali]

Rebuild usually means 2-3 years.

 

White Sox fans historically haven't had that much patience.

 

That statement makes me laugh. Do you realize how f***ing bad the White Sox have been historically?

 

111 season, only NINE total playoff appearances. 1/3 of those coming in the last decade or so (00, 05, 08) with gaps of 40 and 24 years between playoffs. If these fans suddenly can't take some time before being competitive again, f*** 'em. We don't need them around. This team has been better than it's ever been since 2000.... I'd GLADLY take multiple 90+ loss seasons, if it meant re-stocking the farm with talent and spending free agent money wisely to get back into contention in 3-4 years. I just don't trust KW in doing any of the rebuilding, mainly because he doesn't seem to think that's an option. And if he's forced into it by this team sucking, well, I don't wanna see what he'd do being backed into a corner.

[caulfield12]

That statement makes me laugh. Do you realize how f***ing bad the White Sox have been historically?

 

111 season, only NINE total playoff appearances. 1/3 of those coming in the last decade or so (00, 05, 08) with gaps of 40 and 24 years between playoffs. If these fans suddenly can't take some time before being competitive again, f*** 'em. We don't need them around. This team has been better than it's ever been since 2000.... I'd GLADLY take multiple 90+ loss seasons, if it meant re-stocking the farm with talent and spending free agent money wisely to get back into contention in 3-4 years. I just don't trust KW in doing any of the rebuilding, mainly because he doesn't seem to think that's an option. And if he's forced into it by this team sucking, well, I don't wanna see what he'd do being backed into a corner.

 

 

I'll put it into two eras in terms of patience.

 

Those who grew up with the 60's and 70's and 80's teams.

 

Those who grew up with Thomas/Ventura/Fernandez/Lance Johnson/McDowell/Fisk, the late 80's and early 90's teams, and weathered the strike.

 

And then those who grew up and started following the White Sox during the Williams ERA.

 

If nothing else, I guess my statement was a compliment to Williams and the fact that the fans are more fickle as a result of 2005. That and the expectations that come with severely elevated payrolls from 2006-2012. In some ways, winning that World Series was a curse, because KW had TOO MUCH money to play around and he didn't have to be as creative with roster decisions, trades and free agency. (Unfortunately, duplicating the 2005 $65 million roster in 2013 and competing with the mega-spending Tigers doesn't seem like a winning proposition compared to 8 years prior.)

 

A lot of it is the frustration of the Twins winning with lower payrolls while KW only has two division titles in 11 years, with one of them being the result of a coin flip.

 

Personally, I wouldn't mind it (rebuilding), if it meant we had a chance to have a great team for 2-3 years down the line....but there are no guarantees.