Sun-Times: Trades Will Happen Soon if Sox Fail

[Marty34]

In this division the Sox don't need a top 5 farm system to have sustained success, top 15 would probably do it. That is what has been the most frustrating about this organization the last 5 years. In retrospect, we should have probably seen a stretch where they would be at the bottom of minor league systems after the Wilder indictment.

[caulfield12]

In this division the Sox don't need a top 5 farm system to have sustained success, top 15 would probably do it. That is what has been the most frustrating about this organization the last 5 years. In retrospect, we should have probably seen a stretch where they would be at the bottom of minor league systems after the Wilder indictment.

 

 

If this was politics, Wilder would be the equivalent of Afghanistan for Obama today.

 

While KW didn't bring Wilder into the White Sox organization, he's definitely responsible for what happened on his watch.

 

In the end, the won-loss record and attendance over the next 2 seasons will have a lot more to do with KW's final longevity, just like the economy will determine Obama's eventual fate in November.

 

God knows, Ozzie had enough off-the-field issues like the one with Mariotti or his sons on Twitter (with Jenks, for example, or the signing bonuses for the various children) that would have been fireable offenses in MOST MLB organizations where there wasn't so much loyalty. If I ran a business and my general manager was constantly doing things to alienate his customers (fanbase), then I'm not sure I would have been as patient with Ozzie as JR was. Obviously, that 26-5 run in 2010 bought Guillen 2012. In the end, Ozzie's the one quit on the team, when he saw what a difficult process lay ahead of him with this team.

 

 

 

 

[Marty34]

If this was politics, Wilder would be the equivalent of Afghanistan for Obama today.

 

While KW didn't bring Wilder into the White Sox organization, he's definitely responsible for what happened on his watch.

 

In the end, the won-loss record and attendance over the next 2 seasons will have a lot more to do with KW's final longevity, just like the economy will determine Obama's eventual fate in November.

 

God knows, Ozzie had enough off-the-field issues like the one with Mariotti or his sons on Twitter (with Jenks, for example, or the signing bonuses for the various children) that would have been fireable offenses in MOST MLB organizations where there wasn't so much loyalty. If I ran a business and my general manager was constantly doing things to alienate his customers (fanbase), then I'm not sure I would have been as patient with Ozzie as JR was. Obviously, that 26-5 run in 2010 bought Guillen 2012. In the end, Ozzie's the one quit on the team, when he saw what a difficult process lay ahead of him with this team.

 

I don't think it's a safe assumption Williams has two years. I doubt very highly that they can have a year like last year (or worse) and bring him back.

[Marty34]

While KW didn't bring Wilder into the White Sox organization, he's definitely responsible for what happened on his watch.

 

I pay for my season tickets and Williams hired Wilder in 2003.

[caulfield12]

Hmmm....you might be right about that, but Bobby Jenks wouldn't have been on the White Sox if not for Wilder.

 

Without Jenks in late 2005, no World Series trophy.

 

And the Red Sox wouldn't have interviewed him for the GM position that eventually went to Epstein unless they had thoroughly vetted him as well.

 

 

[caulfield12]

I don't think it's a safe assumption Williams has two years. I doubt very highly that they can have a year like last year (or worse) and bring him back.

 

 

Based on what?

 

It's like telling someone to fix the U.S. financial problems in 2009, but you only have one year to do it.

 

It's not realistic.

 

If you're not committed to seeing the rebuilding effort through with one person, then Williams should have been fired last season.

 

Because the next person who comes in will be stuck with KW's decisions (like Molina) and they will always have the excuse the previous regime hamstrung them by making poor decisions.

 

It's KW's mess, he is the one JR trusts to fix it. Otherwise, Hahn would already have been named.

[YASNY]

I pay for my season tickets and Williams hired Wilder in 2003.

 

Wilder was, at the time, a highly respected scout by baseball people and he had a solid history and reputation with the Brewers.

[caulfield12]

There are many reasons to be against Kenny Williams.

 

Because he hired someone he trusted, an executive who was thought highly enough of that one of the 3 most iconic franchises in baseball considered hiring him to be in charge of their team, this same person who also happened to be African-American, who happened to be leveraged up to the hilt in debt due to the speculative ownership of about 10 Phoenix area homes and Club Burn, a controversial gay bar, THAT is not the main reason to hang Williams out to dry.

 

If that's the case, then everyone in the U.S. government who hired someone from Goldman Sachs should be fired as well.

 

Wilder got greedy (and desperate), but how is that different from anyone working on Wall Street or for a mortgage finance company in the last decade? None of them have even been prosecuted and brought to account for their crimes, to this day.

 

Wilder has paid his debt to society. He will probably never have the opportunity to work in baseball again.

Edited March 18, 2012 by caulfield12

[Marty34]

Based on what?

 

It's like telling someone to fix the U.S. financial problems in 2009, but you only have one year to do it.

 

It's not realistic.

 

If you're not committed to seeing the rebuilding effort through with one person, then Williams should have been fired last season.

 

The Sox are not rebuilding, but if they were GM's who preside over farm systems ranked dead last do not get the opportunity to rebuild. The fan base wanted Williams gone with Guillen.

[Marty34]

There are many reasons to be against Kenny Williams.

 

Because he hired someone he trusted, an executive who was thought highly enough of that one of the 3 most iconic franchises in baseball considered hiring him to be in charge of their team, this same person who also happened to be African-American, who happened to be leveraged up to the hilt in debt due to the speculative ownership of about 10 Phoenix area homes and Club Burn, a controversial gay bar, THAT is not the main reason to hang Williams out to dry.

 

It's definitely not a point in his favor.

[caulfield12]

The Sox are not rebuilding, but if they were GM's who preside over farm systems ranked dead last do not get the opportunity to rebuild. The fan base wanted Williams gone with Guillen.

 

 

Nobody would care about the farm system if the major league team would have won at least one more division title, say, in 2010.

 

That has never been Williams' style.

 

By the way, who was in charge of the farm system in 1999-2000-2001 when it was ranked among the top five (one year, it was #1) in baseball?

 

Kenny Williams.

 

How many playoffs did that get the previous GM's? Just 1993 and 2000. or 3 in 18 years.

 

Williams' 2/11 and one World Series championship and the overall winning percentage of the White Sox from 2001-2011 compares favorably with all the other GM's we had, unless you want to go back to the 1950's, 1900's or 1910's.

 

And we've got about 7-8 players on our current team from that same system in the last 3 years.

 

It's not like it has been completely unproductive, quite the contrary.

[Marty34]

Nobody would care about the farm system if the major league team would have won at least one more division title, say, in 2010.

 

That has never been Williams' style.

 

By the way, who was in charge of the farm system in 1999-2000-2001 when it was ranked among the top five (one year, it was #1) in baseball?

 

Kenny Williams.

 

How many playoffs did that get the previous GM's? Just 1993 and 2000. or 3 in 18 years.

 

Williams' 2/11 and one World Series championship and the overall winning percentage of the White Sox from 2001-2011 compares favorably with all the other GM's we had, unless you want to go back to the 1950's, 1900's or 1910's.

 

And we've got about 7-8 players on our current team from that same system in the last 3 years.

 

It's not like it has been completely unproductive, quite the contrary.

 

I take it you think Williams will have gotten an unfair shake if he is let go after this season?

[bigruss]

I take it you think Williams will have gotten an unfair shake if he is let go after this season?

If KW was going to be let go it would've happened this past offseason. He offered to take another position and let Hahn or someone else take over, but JR refused. This situation is all on JR now.

[caulfield12]

I take it you think Williams will have gotten an unfair shake if he is let go after this season?

 

 

Not necessarily.

 

But it doesn't really matter what any of the fans think.

 

That's always been a trademark of KW and JR.

 

 

[southsider2k5]

The Sox are not rebuilding, but if they were GM's who preside over farm systems ranked dead last do not get the opportunity to rebuild. The fan base wanted Williams gone with Guillen.

 

That is ignoring the facts at best. The Sox have a very productive farm system when you completely ignore the trades of the kids that Williams made. When you are talking about rebuilding, which the Sox are doing (I know it doesn't follow your narrative, because it means Williams isn't going to be fired soon, which pisses you off. facts are facts though. The Sox dumped $30 million in salary, and took offers on every single veteran player on the team including Konerko, Danks, and Floyd) you can't treat the organizational outlook like it has been the last 10 years. The guys that would have been dealt over that time, aren't going to be dealt now.

 

 

[The Ginger Kid]

What would you guess Williams approval rating is among Sox fans?

That would be a good poll.

[Jake]

That would be a good poll.

 

It would probably be like Presidential approval where there are many silent favorable folks.

[LVSoxFan]

Personal feelings aside I'm trying to look at it simply as far as results.

 

2005: Thank you KW eternally, you will go down in history for that.

 

But what since then? Granted The Blackout Game 2008 was great fun but did anybody expect that team to go beyond the first round?

 

So where does that leave us? Looking at the last five years (2006-2011), one division win. Perhaps we should consider the non-winning years, in which we finished twice once, third twice, and fourth place once. So I guess my question, assuming this year doesn't get it done, is how many years can it be tolerated?

 

Seriously I thought attendance last year would shake JR to his bones but I guess not yet.

 

To be fair to KW, if he's just JR's puppet and JR's pulling all the strings then it really doesn't matter who you bring in or kick out.

[southsider2k5]

It would probably be like Presidential approval where there are many silent favorable folks.

 

When polled at the end of September more favored keeping Kenny than Ozzie.

[Dick Allen]

When polled at the end of September more favored keeping Kenny than Ozzie.

If you had to keep one, you had to keep Kenny because a victory over Kenny would have made the GM position with the Sox very weak and made Ozzie an even more egotisical clown. KW is running on 2005 fumes and JR loyalty. Of course that could run a long time. Personally, I think they both should have been gone after their childish feud, which now is being reported as a very disruptive influence the past few years. It was totally denied during that time, but its hard to imagine it didn't have an effect. I do think Ozzie and Oney being gone is extremely positive and can only help moving forward. I will be watching with a tub of popcorn the first time things don't go so well in Miami. We do know a couple of things, if the Marlins win, its because of the genius baseball mind of Ozzie Guillen. If they lose, Ozzie has nothing to do with it.

[southsider2k5]

If you had to keep one, you had to keep Kenny because a victory over Kenny would have made the GM position with the Sox very weak and made Ozzie an even more egotisical clown. KW is running on 2005 fumes and JR loyalty. Of course that could run a long time. Personally, I think they both should have been gone after their childish feud, which now is being reported as a very disruptive influence the past few years. It was totally denied during that time, but its hard to imagine it didn't have an effect. I do think Ozzie and Oney being gone is extremely positive and can only help moving forward. I will be watching with a tub of popcorn the first time things don't go so well in Miami. We do know a couple of things, if the Marlins win, its because of the genius baseball mind of Ozzie Guillen. If they lose, Ozzie has nothing to do with it.

 

It also makes it hard to succeed when you manager is pretty much known as killing some of your biggest acquisitions.

[Dick Allen]

It also makes it hard to succeed when you manager is pretty much known as killing some of your biggest acquisitions.

Of course. Ozzie was horrible last year. It wasn't about winning, it was about showing up KW. He's probably lucky he's such a clown. What he did can get someone blackballed.

[Ross]

I will be watching with a tub of popcorn the first time things don't go so well in Miami.

 

I can't wait for this moment.

 

[LVSoxFan]

Of course. Ozzie was horrible last year. It wasn't about winning, it was about showing up KW. He's probably lucky he's such a clown. What he did can get someone blackballed.

 

I am TOTALLY on board with they should have dumped both of them at the end.

 

Ozzie CLEARLY had to go but BOTH of them stopped making it about baseball and instead entirely about trying to screw the other one, both publicly and privately. It was like The Real Housewives of 35th St., except at least that show would have been entertaining.

 

They both exposed each other's true nature.

[ptatc]

“Obviously, the players come and go,’’ Konerko said. “I mean myself and A.J. [Pierzynski], we’re going to be gone here at some point. But the people that head up the team, they have a much better chance of being here a lot longer than us. So they should expect to see a certain way of people going about their business.

 

“And when you have success as a team on a major scale, whether it’s winning the division, making the World Series or winning the World Series, yeah, it kind of buys you some freedoms. That’s the same in almost every workplace in the world. You go out and do the job, and no one says anything if you have little quirks on how you want to get your work in.

 

“When it all comes crashing down, it doesn’t work and you’re not doing the job, then, hey, man, they’re going to batten down the hatches. I certainly don’t take offense to it. If you didn’t see it coming, then you weren’t paying attention. That’s the way it works.’’

 

But get away from the field and take the elevator up a floor to the front offices, and that’s where the difference between the way the Cubs and Sox are doing business can be felt.

 

For the Cubs, it’s very businesslike. It’s almost like watching surgery. General manager Jed Hoyer is the anesthesiologist, Theo Epstein is the surgeon and Sveum is the bald, tatted-up rehab specialist, waiting outside to beat your body up on the road to recovery.

 

It has a white-glove feel to it. Clean, very little mess.

 

The Sox’ front office seems to be more on a crusade. Decisions are random, confusing at times. More from the heart. Almost a “we’ll show you who’s smarter’’ mentality.

 

Then again, players such as Konerko aren’t really concerned with front-office mentalities at this point. They don’t dictate the workload of mid-March days.

 

“We lost the liberties we had when we didn’t get it done as a team,’’ Konerko said. “I’m not saying they’re overdoing it with us. It’s right on for what we’ve earned.’’

 

 

I don't really see anything wrong with the story, other than the over-worshipping everyone is doing with Epstein. And that will last only for a couple of months before fans start to become impatient. It's the nature of professional sports today.

 

And for having something resembling a "boot camp" atmosphere, it sure hasn't helped to clean up a lot of the White Sox mental/physical errors on the defensive side of things. We've been sloppier than I can ever remember...although 50% of that is related to players who won't even be around come the first week of April.

Most of us aren't tatted up, however we are bald.

Edited March 19, 2012 by ptatc