Time to change Viciedo's position again

[hogan873]

Why the hell did they move him to left? I thought he was doing well in right and had a good arm?

If we didn't have the bum, Dunn, we could DH Viciedo the next 15 years (if his age is not a lie) and be done with it.

Don't you have any other word to describe the likes of Dunn, Rios, Peavy, etc.? That "bum" seems to be hitting much better so far...but time will tell.

 

As far as DHing Viciedo, there's no proof that putting him in that position makes him a better hitter. There have been plenty of players in the history of baseball that were bad fielders but excellent hitters, and teams were perfectly fine with that. I'm sure this is the thought process when it comes to Viciedo. He wasn't signed for his defensive abilities.

Edited March 21, 2012 by pittshoganerkoff

[shakes]

If Viciedo is hitting .210 in May, you still think it will have nothing at all to do with playing LF?

 

If he hits .210 the whole season I won't think it will have anything to do with him playing LF. Why was he able to hit all through the minors, and his call ups, while being bounced around between 1B/3B/OF/DH? Why is it suddenly bothering him now? Has he personally made a comment?

 

To show you how little managers and players view the difference between RF and LF, just take a look at the playoffs last year. Lance Berkman played his home games in LF and away games in RF. Why? Because those positions were closer to the dugout, and LaRussa wanted to save him a shorter run, so it would be easier on his knees.

 

If you have a strong arm, you can equally play RF and LF. They are completely interchangeable. A player may have a preference, but I have never heard a player, or a manager, say switching between RF and LF has caused anyone a problem.

 

I'm sorry, this is a reach.

 

Also, this is two weeks of Spring Training at bats. What is wrong with Knoerko, AJ, and Alexei? They are hitting poorly, but playing the same position. Maybe, it's just that we are looking at two weeks of spring training at bats. It doesn't mean anything.

[TaylorStSox]

It is kind of amusing that KW's and Bell's solution to the 3B problem was to sign/acquire/trade for two of the worst 3B in modern-day baseball history in Teahen and Viciedo.

 

Throw in Wilson Betemit, and you have a true Axis of Evil Defense.

 

Even more ironic that after watching Crede and Uribe all those years and the positive effect it had on our pitching staff, they still decided to go in that direction.

 

I know you like to talk a lot, but this is completely disingenuous. He signed Viciedo for nothing more than that bat. He didn't sign him to "play 3rd." Despite the "axis of evil" we have one of the better fielding 3rd basemen in baseball starting. So, uh...good post.

[caulfield12]

I know you like to talk a lot, but this is completely disingenuous. He signed Viciedo for nothing more than that bat. He didn't sign him to "play 3rd." Despite the "axis of evil" we have one of the better fielding 3rd basemen in baseball starting. So, uh...good post.

 

 

He was projected by Williams and his staff to be the 3rd baseman.

 

Look at all the comments when he signed, many were referring to his strong arm and surprising level of athleticism.

 

We had just let Juan Uribe go, and Crede was down for the count too.

 

It wasn't until Viciedo struggled mightily at Birmingham in 2009...leading to the trade in November of 2009 for Mark Teahen to play 3B and the simultaneous move of Gordon Beckham to 2B.

 

You're not going to find a single comment from 2008/2009 saying otherwise.

 

If he was signed to be the primary DH, then bringing in Dunn didn't really make any sense unless KW was so smart at that point that he knew he would trade Carlos Quentin, he of the MVP ability just one year prior, yet have the foresight to know he would ditch Carlos 2 years later and open up that spot in the line-up for Dayan.

 

 

 

THE POINT is that we had 2 great defenders in Uribe and Crede at that position...and brought in two dubious ones in Teahen and Viciedo, when clearly the defense played on the left side of the infield in 2005/2006, 2008 and 2010 (when Vizquel replaced Teahen early in the season) were common threads to our best teams in the decade.

 

Morel wasn't drafted with the thought he would become a more important player in the organization than Viciedo or take over the starting role as soon as 2011. And, he has to prove on the diamond that he can consistently defend like Ventura, Crede, Uribe, Vizquelo or even Ramirez/Beckham, etc. He didn't do that last year, not enough to make up for his low OBP and missing power for 4 1/2 months of the season.

 

But please show me a quote from the White Sox where THEY (and not scouts of opposing teams) viewed him more as a DH/LF/RF and presented him as such at the time of his signing.

 

We have one of the better PROJECTED defenders at 3B, that's it, until he proves it on the field for a full season at near Gold Glove-level.

Edited March 21, 2012 by caulfield12

[Milkman delivers]

I find it pretty hilarious that this:

 

I know you like to talk a lot, but this is completely disingenuous. He signed Viciedo for nothing more than that bat. He didn't sign him to "play 3rd." Despite the "axis of evil" we have one of the better fielding 3rd basemen in baseball starting. So, uh...good post.

 

Was followed by this:

 

He was projected by Williams and his staff to be the 3rd baseman.

 

Look at all the comments when he signed, many were referring to his strong arm and surprising level of athleticism.

 

We had just let Juan Uribe go, and Crede was down for the count too.

 

It wasn't until Viciedo struggled mightily at Birmingham in 2009...leading to the trade in November of 2009 for Mark Teahen to play 3B and the simultaneous move of Gordon Beckham to 2B.

 

You're not going to find a single comment from 2008/2009 saying otherwise.

 

If he was signed to be the primary DH, then bringing in Dunn didn't really make any sense unless KW was so smart at that point that he knew he would trade Carlos Quentin, he of the MVP ability just one year prior, yet have the foresight to know he would ditch Carlos 2 years later and open up that spot in the line-up for Dayan.

 

 

 

THE POINT is that we had 2 great defenders in Uribe and Crede at that position...and brought in two dubious ones in Teahen and Viciedo, when clearly the defense played on the left side of the infield in 2005/2006, 2008 and 2010 (when Vizquel replaced Teahen early in the season) were common threads to our best teams in the decade.

 

Morel wasn't drafted with the thought he would become a more important player in the organization than Viciedo or take over the starting role as soon as 2011. And, he has to prove on the diamond that he can consistently defend like Ventura, Crede, Uribe, Vizquelo or even Ramirez/Beckham, etc. He didn't do that last year, not enough to make up for his low OBP and missing power for 4 1/2 months of the season.

 

But please show me a quote from the White Sox where THEY (and not scouts of opposing teams) viewed him more as a DH/LF/RF and presented him as such at the time of his signing.

 

We have one of the better PROJECTED defenders at 3B, that's it, until he proves it on the field for a full season at near Gold Glove-level.

 

[Leonard Zelig]

If he hits .210 the whole season I won't think it will have anything to do with him playing LF. Why was he able to hit all through the minors, and his call ups, while being bounced around between 1B/3B/OF/DH? Why is it suddenly bothering him now? Has he personally made a comment?

 

To show you how little managers and players view the difference between RF and LF, just take a look at the playoffs last year. Lance Berkman played his home games in LF and away games in RF. Why? Because those positions were closer to the dugout, and LaRussa wanted to save him a shorter run, so it would be easier on his knees.

If you have a strong arm, you can equally play RF and LF. They are completely interchangeable. A player may have a preference, but I have never heard a player, or a manager, say switching between RF and LF has caused anyone a problem.

 

I'm sorry, this is a reach.

 

Also, this is two weeks of Spring Training at bats. What is wrong with Knoerko, AJ, and Alexei? They are hitting poorly, but playing the same position. Maybe, it's just that we are looking at two weeks of spring training at bats. It doesn't mean anything.

 

This is absolutely made up bulls***. Berkman played the first 2 games against PHI in LF when Holliday was injured and never returned to that position again for the rest of the postseason.

[shakes]

This is absolutely made up bulls***. Berkman played the first 2 games against PHI in LF when Holliday was injured and never returned to that position again for the rest of the postseason.

 

 

It's not bulls***.

 

http://aol.sportingnews.com/mlb/story/2011...his-own-formula

http://aol.sportingnews.com/mlb/feed/2011-...ce-for-st-louis

 

Anyway, it was only a few games, but it was to illustrate that the difference between playing RF and LF is not that much of a change. Berkman said himself he preferred playing the position closest to the dugout.

[caulfield12]

I find it pretty hilarious that this:

 

 

 

Was followed by this:

 

 

 

 

 

Well, actually, I was accusing of talking too much (even though this is a website where I thought people WROTE about the Sox) and being disingenuous, which means "not candid or sincere."

 

I've been one of Viciedo's biggest defenders on a consistent basis since 2008, as much as I was anti-Brian Anderson.

 

Why would I have any reason to characterize Williams' signing of Viciedo in a false light? It would be better if people knew the meanings of the words they were throwing around.

 

I guess we shouldn't even bother to quote what anyone with the team itself actually says, and just make up our own interpretations as we go along, since we're all professional scouts here.

 

I should have written last year, no KW, Zach Stewart will never, can never be a starter, you're being disingenuous foisting this huge acquisition for Edwin Jackson off on us as anything but another bullpen arm, lol.

 

 

[caulfield12]

It's not bulls***.

 

http://aol.sportingnews.com/mlb/story/2011...his-own-formula

http://aol.sportingnews.com/mlb/feed/2011-...ce-for-st-louis

 

Anyway, it was only a few games, but it was to illustrate that the difference between playing RF and LF is not that much of a change. Berkman said himself he preferred playing the position closest to the dugout.

 

That does it. My new one line response to every post from Marty34 will be "you talk too much at a message board, and your post is simply made up bull---- and disingenuous" and nothing further in terms of elucidation.

 

That will surely help to make this board more enlightening and entertaining.

Edited March 21, 2012 by caulfield12

[Brian]

Right guard or left tackle? Oops, wrong team.

[macsandz]

Case and point-

 

Defensively, though, Viciedo doesn't have that same pedigree. And he's not comfortable in left field, according to GM Kenny Williams:

 

 

http://www.csnchicago.com/baseball-chicago...&feedID=621

[Dick Allen]

What's funny is people think Viciedo playing a position he can't play will hurt him when at the plate, but Dunn playing a position he can't play will help him at the plate.

 

Personally, I don't think Viciedo's position in the field will have any effect on his offense. A lot of people are panicking about 30 meaningless ABs after 4 or 5 months without seeing live pitching. People are taking spring training numbers way too seriously.

Edited March 22, 2012 by Dick Allen

[TaylorStSox]

He was projected by Williams and his staff to be the 3rd baseman.

 

Look at all the comments when he signed, many were referring to his strong arm and surprising level of athleticism.

 

We had just let Juan Uribe go, and Crede was down for the count too.

 

It wasn't until Viciedo struggled mightily at Birmingham in 2009...leading to the trade in November of 2009 for Mark Teahen to play 3B and the simultaneous move of Gordon Beckham to 2B.

 

You're not going to find a single comment from 2008/2009 saying otherwise.

 

If he was signed to be the primary DH, then bringing in Dunn didn't really make any sense unless KW was so smart at that point that he knew he would trade Carlos Quentin, he of the MVP ability just one year prior, yet have the foresight to know he would ditch Carlos 2 years later and open up that spot in the line-up for Dayan.

 

 

 

THE POINT is that we had 2 great defenders in Uribe and Crede at that position...and brought in two dubious ones in Teahen and Viciedo, when clearly the defense played on the left side of the infield in 2005/2006, 2008 and 2010 (when Vizquel replaced Teahen early in the season) were common threads to our best teams in the decade.

 

Morel wasn't drafted with the thought he would become a more important player in the organization than Viciedo or take over the starting role as soon as 2011. And, he has to prove on the diamond that he can consistently defend like Ventura, Crede, Uribe, Vizquelo or even Ramirez/Beckham, etc. He didn't do that last year, not enough to make up for his low OBP and missing power for 4 1/2 months of the season.

 

But please show me a quote from the White Sox where THEY (and not scouts of opposing teams) viewed him more as a DH/LF/RF and presented him as such at the time of his signing.

 

We have one of the better PROJECTED defenders at 3B, that's it, until he proves it on the field for a full season at near Gold Glove-level.

 

 

I think you're missing the point. The Sox didn't sign Viciedo to play a position. They signed his bat with the hopes of plugging him in somewhere where he wouldn't embarrass himself. They signed him to fill any one of several positions including 3rd, 1st, LF, RF or DH.

 

I do have to admit that I replied to your post without even reading it all. It was classic tl;dr.

Edited March 23, 2012 by TaylorStSox

[justBLAZE]

Viciedo wasn't hitting not because of the position change, it was a TOOTH that was bothering him. Tooth was pulled and yesterday Babe Viciedo went bananas with the bat.

[southsider2k5]

Case and point-

 

Defensively, though, Viciedo doesn't have that same pedigree. And he's not comfortable in left field, according to GM Kenny Williams:

 

 

http://www.csnchicago.com/baseball-chicago...&feedID=621

 

This still doesn't change the fact that he was horrible at 3B and RF too. He wasn't comfortable at either of those positions either.

[GREEDY]

I remember thinking 1B would be the only position Dayan could/would/should play back when we were watching youtube videos of his fatass taking BP in Cuba.

 

Too bad KW has already allocated 20MIL+ a season, for the foreseeable future at DH/1B.

 

The Sox (and much of the AL) have had horrendous outfielders in LF for almost a decade now, so I guess I am used to it.

 

As long as Morel and Gordon can stay in the lineup the Sox, they will have plus defenders at 2B, SS, 3B and RF; and prolly average in CF and maybe C. PK is a bad first basemen by most accounts, but at least he is sure handed so it isn't a nerve-wracking kind of bad. On a whole the defense should be very good, especially since the three reserves (Lilli, Fukudome and Flowers) are all above average at their respective positions.

Edited March 25, 2012 by GREEDY

[macsandz]

This still doesn't change the fact that he was horrible at 3B and RF too. He wasn't comfortable at either of those positions either.

 

How do you know he wasn't confortable in RF? He played an entire minor league season there and produced at the plate.

 

The point of this thread is that the Sox dumped him in LF this spring with zero notice and I think it's affecting his hitting - as does KW and Buddy Bell.

[southsider2k5]

How do you know he wasn't confortable in RF? He played an entire minor league season there and produced at the plate.

 

The point of this thread is that the Sox dumped him in LF this spring with zero notice and I think it's affecting his hitting - as does KW and Buddy Bell.

 

Because I saw him play RF last year. He was awful. He made Quentin look decent out there.

[witesoxfan]

Case and point-

Defensively, though, Viciedo doesn't have that same pedigree. And he's not comfortable in left field, according to GM Kenny Williams:

 

 

http://www.csnchicago.com/baseball-chicago...&feedID=621

Case IN point

[Balta1701]

Just have to hope Robin means this...even if he's willing to lose games while the kid learns.

Manager Robin Ventura preached patience Sunday with left fielder Dayan Viciedo after his latest struggles.

 

"He's more frustrated than anything," Ventura said after Viciedo went 0-for-4 that dropped his batting average to .100. "He's putting pressure on himself. He's been working in the cage. I understand the pressure with all the buildup. You just talk to him. If you're not hitting, you're expected to hit. He's talented, he just has to be patient and not overdo it.

 

"It will come. You talk and watch. He has to have patience. He's the one going to the plate."

 

Ventura didn't believe he would need to share his own struggles with Viciedo. Ventura started his career in a 4-for-44 rut before producing a career .267 batting average with nine seasons of 20 home runs or more.