Trayvon Martin

[StrangeSox]

Yet it's abhorrent for Zimmerman to think that Martin was up to no good? GMAB. You can't have it both ways. It's either acceptable to stereotype or it's not.

 

Yes, it was abhorrent for Zimmerman to assume a black kid wearing a hoodie was a criminal. That's exactly the attitude that parallels in this case. I'm judging this guy based on the actions he took, which was telling a group of black teens to turn down their music and then shooting them.

 

Here's some expansion on what I'm saying:

 

http://tv.msnbc.com/2012/12/01/if-you-are-...-threat-enough/

 

It’s me, Melissa. And if you are like me, this latest news has got you concerned, indeed. Because here we are again. It has been barely a year since the killing of Trayvon Martin resurrected that old angst–long buried, but always there just below the surface. You know that feeling. It’s the one that makes us hear about Trayvon, and now Jordan Davis, and reach back across decades into our history, for the name of another boy named Emmett Till.

 

Then, it was a whistle at a white woman. Now, it’s a hooded sweatshirt or music being played loudly from a car.

 

But always, this one thing has been the same–No presumption of innocence for young black men. No benefit of the doubt. Guilt–not determined by what they did or said–but presumed to be inherent in their very being. They need not wield a weapon to pose a threat. Because, if you are a young, black man, who you are is threat enough. And in yet another case, it seems, that perceived threat is justification enough for someone who would play judge, jury and executioner.

 

Jordan Russell Davis will be laid to rest today. His father described his son as a typical teenager, who was looking forward to staring his first job, working at McDonald’s. He was saving up to buy his first car. The day before he died, his mother says, he gave the Thanksgiving dinner prayer, where he gave thanks for his family.

 

But before Jordan could be eulogized at his funeral, the defense team for the man who is accused of killing him was already telling a different story about who this young man was. According to police, Jordan and his three friends were sitting in an SUV at a Jacksonville gas station, when Dunn pulled up next to them and asked them to turn down their music down. Words were exchanged. This is the story Dunn’s attorney, Robin Lemonidis, about why her client felt threatened:

 

“He sees that much of a shotgun coming up over the rim of the SUV…and all he sees are heavily tinted front windows that are up and the back windows that are down, and the car has at least four black men in it, and he doesn’t know how old anyone is, and he doesn’t know anything, but he knows a shotgun when he sees one because he got his first gun as a gift from his grandparents when he was in third grade.”

 

Police have found no evidence that Jordan and his friends had any weapon in their car.

 

But Michael David Dunn, a registered gun owner, did have one. He used his gun to fire eight rounds into the boys’ vehicle. Two of those bullets struck and killed Jordan Davis, who was sitting in the backseat. Dunn fled the scene.

 

These are the facts as we know them today. As the investigation continues, details will no doubt continue to emerge. But as we watch the case unfold, let us be sure, while we are watching, that we continue to see in Jordan Davis what Michael Dunn did not–a human being, instead of a threat.

 

Sincerely,

Melissa

 

edit: also this from Ta-Nehisi:

 

Racism is not merely a simplistic hatred. It is, more often, broad sympathy toward some and broader skepticism toward others. Black America ever lives under that skeptical eye. Hence the old admonishments to be “twice as good.” Hence the need for a special “talk” administered to black boys about how to be extra careful when relating to the police.

Edited December 4, 2012 by StrangeSox

[StrangeSox]

Make that death metal instead of Brad Pailey and it could happen. Racism is also jumping to race as the first and only reason that anythgin happens. Black kid gets shot by a white guy? Racism. Hispanic denied a house loan? Racism. Muslim group denied a mosque building permit in the middle of a residential area? Racism. Too many race hustlers out there screaming at the top of their lungs to defend the victim, if they are a minority, simply because they are a minority.

 

I also never read the comments at the newspaper sites and so on. Made that mistake a few times, doesn't matter the story. A$$holes on parade, both sides of whatever issue it is.

 

See, the thing is, there's a pretty good history of blacks getting violently assaulted because of racism, of hispanics and other minorities getting f***ed by banks and realtors because of racism (Wells Fargo just settled a huge case about that this year!), of people opposing mosques being built simply because they are mosques and that'd be "letting the terrorists win," not anything to do with zoning. Too many people out there screaming at the top of their lungs that racism isn't really a problem in this country anymore.

 

In this case, there's really no doubt that the victim was completely innocent. The guy's story is complete non-sense--a group of teens had a shotgun and pointed it at him, but in the time it took for him to fire off 8 rounds, they never bothered firing once? And then they managed to ditch the weapon? Or maybe this dumbass had a racial bias and was pre-disposed to see them as a threat.

[EvilMonkey]

See, the thing is, there's a pretty good history of blacks getting violently assaulted because of racism, of hispanics and other minorities getting f***ed by banks and realtors because of racism (Wells Fargo just settled a huge case about that this year!), of people opposing mosques being built simply because they are mosques and that'd be "letting the terrorists win," not anything to do with zoning. Too many people out there screaming at the top of their lungs that racism isn't really a problem in this country anymore.

 

In this case, there's really no doubt that the victim was completely innocent. The guy's story is complete non-sense--a group of teens had a shotgun and pointed it at him, but in the time it took for him to fire off 8 rounds, they never bothered firing once? And then they managed to ditch the weapon? Or maybe this dumbass had a racial bias and was pre-disposed to see them as a threat.

And too many people screaming that racism exists in each and every action taken by a white man. (no reference to the guy shooting the kids because of music, more in general)

[StrangeSox]

I don't know how many people are actually screaming that versus that being a strawman to avoid actually addressing racism. Go read some Ta-Nehisi Coates. He touches on this subject frequently and is far from shrill or quick to jumping to accusations of racism.

[bmags]

And too many people screaming that racism exists in each and every action taken by a white man. (no reference to the guy shooting the kids because of music, more in general)

 

No.

[EvilMonkey]

I don't know how many people are actually screaming that versus that being a strawman to avoid actually addressing racism. Go read some Ta-Nehisi Coates. He touches on this subject frequently and is far from shrill or quick to jumping to accusations of racism.

Go read some jessie Jackson, Al Sharpton, almost any liberal talk show host, Jason Whitlock, the BCC, NAACP, Rainbow PUSH and so on to see the quick jumps to racism on the part of the white man. The louder voices are the ones that get the airplay, what people hear.

[StrangeSox]

Yeah but there's a lot of racism on the part of the white man out there.

 

The way I phrased it was unintentionally snarky, but I honestly would recommend reading someone like TNC to at least understand where social-justice types are coming from. Because nobody, not JJ or Sharpton, especially not the BCC or NAACP are calling each and every action taken by a white man racist. That's just a silly dodge to avoid discussing or understanding racism and racist attitudes and actions or why others might perceive something as racial even if you don't.

[bmags]

Calling a white man racist is the worst crime in America.

[Jenksismyhero]

Yeah but there's a lot of racism on the part of the white man out there.

 

The way I phrased it was unintentionally snarky, but I honestly would recommend reading someone like TNC to at least understand where social-justice types are coming from. Because nobody, not JJ or Sharpton, especially not the BCC or NAACP are calling each and every action taken by a white man racist. That's just a silly dodge to avoid discussing or understanding racism and racist attitudes and actions or why others might perceive something as racial even if you don't.

 

Your dismissal of them doing that crap doesn't help either. At this point those people are rabble-rousers and nothing more.

 

I remember when I was in high school 6-7 black kids went to a high school football game and started a brawl in Decatur. The school expelled them (as they should have). Jackson went down with his coalition, screaming racism and injustice. It shut the school down for a few days, became a huge thing, and he bullied the school into putting the kids into alternative school instead. They were a bunch of dickheads that deserved to be expelled, but they were black so the punishment was immediately too harsh and wrong. That was my first exposure to Jackson being the problem with racism, not the solution.

 

 

[bmags]

Your dismissal of them doing that crap doesn't help either. At this point those people are rabble-rousers and nothing more.

 

I remember when I was in high school 6-7 black kids went to a high school football game and started a brawl in Decatur. The school expelled them (as they should have). Jackson went down with his coalition, screaming racism and injustice. It shut the school down for a few days, became a huge thing, and he bullied the school into putting the kids into alternative school instead. They were a bunch of dickheads that deserved to be expelled, but they were black so the punishment was immediately too harsh and wrong. That was my first exposure to Jackson being the problem with racism, not the solution.

 

 

And yet, I find that much less concerning than black teenagers getting killed because they are automatically viewed as a threat.

[StrangeSox]

Rainbow PUSH, theNAACP and the BCC are not "rabble-rousers and nothing more."

 

Reading the quick wiki, the school had expelled them for two years. That is an injustice and a terrible policy. Zero-tolerance, three-strike laws, etc. are dumb and disproportionately affect minorities. Reading through this article, it sure seems like the school administrators did their share of "rabble-rousing" as well, with dubious gang accusations and releasing school records to the public.

 

A ten-year look-back on the incident notes this:

Jackson brought attention to his contention that so-called "zero-tolerance" policies were not applied fairly to all. An Associated Press analysis has found in the 10 years since, the racial disparity in discipline between whites and blacks has blown open.

[StrangeSox]

And yet, I find that much less concerning than black teenagers getting killed because they are automatically viewed as a threat.

that works too.

[mr_genius]

Ta-Nehisi:

nice name dude

 

hahahaha

 

[BigSqwert]

nice name dude

 

hahahaha

It's Jamaican for "mr genius is an anus".

[iamshack]

Honestly, if you are that freaking trigger-happy around black teenagers, or anything that scares you in general, why not just go to a different gas station?

 

Let's not pretend as if obnoxious teenagers or adolescents of any race don't loiter in public places or intimidate others by congregating near the entrances of all kinds of different businesses. They do. It is annoying and it is frustrating. We shouldn't have to feel threatened or go elsewhere. But pulling a gun and shooting them is clearly not an alternative.

[Balta1701]

Honestly, if you are that freaking trigger-happy around black teenagers, or anything that scares you in general, why not just go to a different gas station?

 

Let's not pretend as if obnoxious teenagers or adolescents of any race don't loiter in public places or intimidate others by congregating near the entrances of all kinds of different businesses. They do. It is annoying and it is frustrating. We shouldn't have to feel threatened or go elsewhere. But pulling a gun and shooting them is clearly not an alternative.

The state of Florida has decided that a person intimidated by scary looking (blackity black black) teenagers at a gas station has every right to defend himself as long as a reasonable person would also be intimidated by those people.

[Texsox]

Your dismissal of them doing that crap doesn't help either. At this point those people are rabble-rousers and nothing more.

 

I remember when I was in high school 6-7 black kids went to a high school football game and started a brawl in Decatur. The school expelled them (as they should have). Jackson went down with his coalition, screaming racism and injustice. It shut the school down for a few days, became a huge thing, and he bullied the school into putting the kids into alternative school instead. They were a bunch of dickheads that deserved to be expelled, but they were black so the punishment was immediately too harsh and wrong. That was my first exposure to Jackson being the problem with racism, not the solution.

 

Perhaps they should have been expelled, that could be debated for reasons below. However, everyone I hope agrees that they should have received the same punishment that anyone else, regardless of race, would have received in that situation.

 

Expulsion should be the last resort. Expulsion is problematic because the kids are then enriolled in a new school district. It becomes a nice way for districts to move their problems to surrounding communties.

 

The problem is in too many places black kids start brawls and white kids had a little fight.

Black gets are expelled, white kids receive detention.

Black kids are trouble makers, white kids were in the wrong place at the wrong time.

 

Equal transgressions should receive equal punishments. So either start cranking up the penalties for white kids or crank them down for everyone else.

[Texsox]

And yet, I find that much less concerning than black teenagers getting killed because they are automatically viewed as a threat.

 

 

Maybe teenagers will stop loitering and looking threatening. Go find another place to hangout away from the public.

[Jenksismyhero]

Rainbow PUSH, theNAACP and the BCC are not "rabble-rousers and nothing more."

 

Reading the quick wiki, the school had expelled them for two years. That is an injustice and a terrible policy. Zero-tolerance, three-strike laws, etc. are dumb and disproportionately affect minorities. Reading through this article, it sure seems like the school administrators did their share of "rabble-rousing" as well, with dubious gang accusations and releasing school records to the public.

 

A ten-year look-back on the incident notes this:

 

Those kids deserved to be punished like that. That wiki article explains they were s***ty students before this event, the zero tolerance policy was enacted BEFORE the fight, and Jackson made it a racial thing when it was simply stupid kids getting a much deserved punishment. I remember watching the video - which was the end of the fight - and they literally were in the stands punching and kicking without regard for anyone.

 

Edit: and pointing to the fact that more blacks were expelled than whites doesn't really prove there's racial bias. How do you know it wasn't justified based on each specific case?

Edited December 5, 2012 by Jenksismybitch

[Jenksismyhero]

The state of Florida has decided that a person intimidated by scary looking (blackity black black) teenagers at a gas station has every right to defend himself as long as a reasonable person would also be intimidated by those people.

 

Oh stop, that's not the law.

[StrangeSox]

First, you're focusing on one particular issue with Jackson/Rainbow PUSH, which doesn't justify either yours or alpha's casual dismissal of racism or numerous minorities groups as "nothing but rabble-rousers."

 

Those kids deserved to be punished like that. That wiki article explains they were s***ty students before this event, the zero tolerance policy was enacted BEFORE the fight, and Jackson made it a racial thing when it was simply stupid kids getting a much deserved punishment. I remember watching the video - which was the end of the fight - and they literally were in the stands punching and kicking without regard for anyone.

 

Edit: and pointing to the fact that more blacks were expelled than whites doesn't really prove there's racial bias. How do you know it wasn't justified based on each specific case?

 

A two-year expulsion is an amazingly dumb policy pretty much regardless of circumstance and all but guarantees that they'll be drop-outs. Instead, some went on to be losers while others went on to finish college with the help of Rainbow PUSH. So, instead of being nothing but race-baiting rabble-rousers, they managed to get several students to graduate high school and some to go on to college who otherwise wouldn't have. The students still faced discipline. Sounds like a better outcome in the end, and that requires drama sometimes. You don't always have to agree with or support those tactics, but they can be effective. Really, what good would a two-year suspension have done for anyone?

 

It also brought more scrutiny on zero-tolerance laws, which is also a good thing regardless of racial discrepancies in their application. Here's the actual AP review that the quote references, which notes that, like just about every other facet of our justice systems, minorities and particularly blacks face disproportionate punishment.

 

http://www.apa.org/pubs/info/reports/zero-tolerance.pdf

[Jenksismyhero]

I'm not dismissing racism as if it doesn't exist. I'm saying that Jackson and Sharpton are rabble-rousers because they fly all over the country any time any race issue comes out and the first thing the scream on their soap box is "damn whites, this is racist!" So, we ignore the fact that 7 idiotic assholes started a riot, and instead tear a community apart over why white people in Decatur hate black people.

 

 

[StrangeSox]

Reading articles years removed from the incident, that doesn't really sound like what happened. It sounds like there were some protests over some unnecessarily harsh punishments, that Jackson eventually alleged racial bias, but that it was ultimately resolved and led to a better outcome than outright expelling students for two years. It doesn't seem like Jackson was ever saying that they didn't start the fight and didn't deserve some disciplinary action but that the discipline given was unjust.

 

Was the community really "torn apart" by that? Or were there some minor inconveniences due to protests for a few days/weeks, things calmed down, and a fair solution was worked out with the help of Gov. Ryan supporting Jackson's position?

 

Jackson and Sharpton have lived through decades of serious and severe racism. Jackson marched with King in Selma and Montgomery. Maybe they're a little more primed to recognize a racial bias behind an injustice than someone who hasn't ever really had to deal with it.

[StrangeSox]

So this Ta-Nehisi post from the archives got linked elsewhere recently and I thought it was worth posting here. Could go in the Dem thread in the discussion about Jefferson, too.

 

http://www.theatlantic.com/national/archiv...obby-lee/38813/

 

These were the kind of forces at work in his world, and I'm not convinced we have the intrinsic right to expect someone like Lee to oppose them. Likewise, I may think that it was sinister for people who "looked like me" to sell me into slavery, but that presumes an expectation of racial unity which almost certainly didn't exist at the time. Again, it summons the dead to do the work that I would shy away from.

 

I think this boils down to the problem of nationalism, and where we find our heroes. It isn't like Southerners are devoid of people who were courageous in all aspects. There's the great Virginian patriot George Henry Robert Thomas, who goes from slave-master in waiting, to leading black troops in brilliant military campaigns in Tennessee, and in his last days defends the rights of freedman. There's Elizabeth Van Lew, who emancipated all her slaves before the War, and used them as part of a Union spy network in Richmond, the Confederate capitol.

 

There's "The Boat-Thief" Robert Smalls, a slave who stole Confederate transport steamer, filled with armaments, and sailed it to Union lines. There's Andre Callioux, a manumitted slave turned Union soldier, martyred at Port Hudson in a kamikaze-like charge on the Confederate works. And a century later, there's Martin Luther King, arguably the modern founding father of this America. He was a product of The South, and his moral judgement didn't end at the Mason-Dixon line.

 

Finally, there's the question of how we claim ancestors, a question that is more philosophical than biological. Africa, and African-America, means something to me because I claim it as such--but I claim much more. I claim Fitzgerald, whatever he thought of me, because I see myself in Gatsby. I claim Steinbeck because, whether he likes it or not, I am an Okie. I claim Blake because "London" feels like the hood to me.

 

And I claim them right alongside Lucille Clifton, James Baldwin and Ralph Wiley, who had it so right when he parried Saul Bellow. The dead, and the work they leave---the good and bad--is the work of humanity and thus says something of us all. And in that manner, I must be humble and claim some of Lee, Jackson, and Forrest. What might I have been in another skin, in another country, in another time?

 

The closing paragraph was especially powerful.

[lostfan]

Go read some jessie Jackson, Al Sharpton, almost any liberal talk show host, Jason Whitlock, the BCC, NAACP, Rainbow PUSH and so on to see the quick jumps to racism on the part of the white man. The louder voices are the ones that get the airplay, what people hear.

Sharpton gets lumped into this group all the time and doesn't really belong there.