Trayvon Martin

[StrangeSox]

He was eating skittles and drinking iced tea. He was walking home from the store.

 

I don't think him looking at Martin and thinking "hey, I wonder what he's up to, he's probably up to no good" is automatically racist

 

Clearly I don't think it's racist. If YOU want to label it as racist, that's what I don't care about nor do I agree with you that it's wrong.

 

And the end result had nothing to do with Zimmerman calling the cops and tailing Martin. It could have ended a thousand different ways after that "racist" move.

 

If you can't see how assuming that an unknown black male is probably up to no good, even though they're just walking down the sidewalk and talking on the phone, simply because they're a black male is racist as f***, one step short of donning the hoods for a good ol' fashioned lynching, I'm not really interested in a conversation.

 

Edited June 28, 2013 by StrangeSox

[StrangeSox]

btw could a mod please fix my typo in the thread title?

[MexSoxFan#1]

These last two pages are proof Americans really really don't know s*** about their neighbors to the south...We all look the same!!

 

FYI, my mother was fair skinned with blue eyes (she was white and Mexican amazingly enough! Might have something to do with the fact that here parents were from Spain, hint, it's located in Europe). My second son has blue/grayish eyes and could be considered "white". Among my friends, there is Italian, English, Arabic, French, Chinese, German and Portuguese ancestry along with the obvious Spanish/Amerindian mix. We are ethnically diverse. One example? Former President Fox is of Irish ancestry. Lots more examples I can come up with but I think you get my point. We're not all "brown and short".

 

I don't know how that study SS posted came about their results but we are much more diverse than what Y2HH and others like him think...He's been to Mexico a bunch of times, I've only lived here for half of my 42 years.

 

To the thread subject, Zimmerman has to pay for his idiocy at the very least.

Edited June 28, 2013 by MexSoxFan#1

[StrangeSox]

These last two pages are proof Americans really really don't know s*** about their neighbors to the south...We all look the same!!

 

FYI, my mother was fair skinned with blue eyes (she was white and Mexican amazingly enough! Might have something to do with the fact that here parents were from Spain, hint, it's located in Europe). My second son has blue/grayish eyes and could be considered "white". Among my friends, there is Italian, English, Arabic, French, Chinese, German and Portuguese ancestry along with the obvious Spanish/Amerindian mix. We are ethnically diverse. One example? Former President Fox is of Irish ancestry. Lots more examples I can come up with but I think you get my point. We're not all "brown and short".

 

I don't know how that study SS posted came about their results but we are much more diverse than what Y2HH and others like him think...He's been to Mexico a bunch of times, I've only lived here for half of my 42 years.

 

To the thread subject, Zimmerman has to pay for his idiocy at the very least.

 

They combed through data from encyclopedias, CIA World Fact Book, did surveys, etc. It's a little old now, 2002, but when it was published it was, by far, the broadest and most comprehensive study of its kind that had been done.

[StrangeSox]

But with a hoodie pulled over his head, it definitely adds to the suspicion.

this has to be sarcastic, right?

[Jenksismyhero]

If you can't see how assuming that an unknown black male is probably up to no good, even though they're just walking down the sidewalk and talking on the phone, simply because they're a black male is racist as f***, one step short of donning the hoods for a good ol' fashioned lynching, I'm not really interested in a conversation.

 

And if you can't see the importance of the context here, with Zimmerman being personally exposed to crimes committed by black teenagers in his neighborhood, then i'm not really interested in a conversation with you about this either. It is simply not as simple as "Zimmerman saw a black kid and called the cops on him." The context absolutely matters.

 

 

[StrangeSox]

And if you can't see the importance of the context here, with Zimmerman being personally exposed to crimes committed by black teenagers in his neighborhood, then i'm not really interested in a conversation with you about this either. It is simply not as simple as "Zimmerman saw a black kid and called the cops on him." The context absolutely matters.

Assuming all black people are criminals because some black people broke into a few homes is racist as f***, not to mention paranoid, and leads to really s***ty reasoning and results. Like shooting an innocent person to death.

[Jenksismyhero]

Assuming all black people are criminals because some black people broke into a few homes is racist as f***, not to mention paranoid, and leads to really s***ty reasoning and results. Like shooting an innocent person to death.

 

He didn't assume all black people were criminals. He assumed a black teenager who was similar to other black teenagers that were committing crimes in his small, gated community, might be a criminal.

 

And yeah, he might have been paranoid. But if you live through a couple of break-ins in and around your home, and the cops have done little to nothing about it, maybe the paranoia becomes more justified.

[MexSoxFan#1]

They combed through data from encyclopedias, CIA World Fact Book, did surveys, etc. It's a little old now, 2002, but when it was published it was, by far, the broadest and most comprehensive study of its kind that had been done.

Ok

 

Americans have to get their heads outta their collective asses when it comes to racial make up of LatinAmerica. Europeans and people from other parts of the world didn't just go to the USA/Canada.

 

I think Americans believe all Mexicans/Latinos are Amerindians because those are the majority of people that emigrated to the US. They are people who were farmers and small villagers who had no opportunities in the big cities. It's as if millions of poor rural southerns left the US to go to Canada, in time, most Canadiens would come to believe the US were made up of just a bunch of poor Southern hicks.

[StrangeSox]

Not at all. When added to all the other descriptions of the people committing the burglaries, a person also concealing more of their identity raises suspicion.

he's black and wearing a hoodie while it's raining, therefore he's probably a criminal. Great police work.

 

 

relevant:

http://thinkprogress.org/justice/2013/06/2...ies-too-little/

Bloomberg was echoing a similar argument made by the city’s lawyer last month during closing arguments in the civil suit brought against the NYPD and the Bloomberg administration. But the judge in the case called that rationale a “worrisome argument,” and civil rights groups have argued that the city’s stop-and-frisk program is unconstitutional. The U.S. Department of Justice has said that if the judge rules against the NYPD, they would seek to install an independent monitor to oversee the police department.

 

The statistics are overwhelming. An independent study of the city’s stop-and-frisk program found that 87 percent of the 685,724 stops in 2011 — a record high — were of blacks and latinos. Young black men between the ages of 14 and 24 were stopped 106% of the time — as in, there were more stops of young black men than the entire population of young black men.

 

The evidence does not support Bloomberg’s claim that stopping more minorities will lower the city’s crime rate. Stop-and-frisk had a 90 percent failure rate in 2011, and in the first three months of 2013, when the number of stops fell by 51 percent from the same period last year, the crime rate dropped as well.

 

And contrary to Bloomberg’s assertion that the NYPD stops too many white people, a study by the city’s own Public Advocate found that stops of white people were twice as likely to yield a weapon, and a third more likely to yield some form of contraband as compared to stops of black people.

Edited June 28, 2013 by StrangeSox

[pettie4sox]

Zimmerman made his mistake being too aggressive. I think his actions (being suspicious not pursuing TM) were justified considering the circumstances. I just think he lost his composure due to the criminal activities and took things into his own hands. He probably thought TM was going to just lay down. He was wrong, there was a scuffle, and the kid got shot dead. GZ could have used context clues and tact to diffuse the situation but I imagine they both went into meathead mode.

 

2nd degree murder is just the wrong charge. Maybe negligent homicide or manslaughter (they might be the same, I'm no lawyer).

 

I'm a black man myself and I am even suspicious of black folks. I know what some are capable of. If white people were like that, I'd be suspcious of them to. The fact is, it isn't a case for racism as much being concerned. Racist is like the KKK who just hate to hate. Having concerns doesn't make you a racist.

[Jenksismyhero]

And young, and very new to the neighborhood, and there had been burglaries committed by people matching that description. Any halfway decent cop would have plenty of reason right there to stop him and talk (which Zimmerman isn't, obviously). It's not that he's black, it's that he matches a general description. Sorry, man. That's how it is. Descriptions are what get people caught.

 

That's only because the cops in this country are raycess.

[Jenksismyhero]

Zimmerman made his mistake being too aggressive. I think his actions (being suspicious not pursuing TM) were justified considering the circumstances. I just think he lost his composure due to the criminal activities and took things into his own hands. He probably thought TM was going to just lay down. He was wrong, there was a scuffle, and the kid got shot dead. GZ could have used context clues and tact to diffuse the situation but I imagine they both went into meathead mode.

 

2nd degree murder is just the wrong charge. Maybe negligent homicide or manslaughter (they might be the same, I'm no lawyer).

 

I'm a black man myself and I am even suspicious of black folks. I know what some are capable of. If white people were like that, I'd be suspcious of them to. The fact is, it isn't a case for racism as much being concerned. Racist is like the KKK who just hate to hate. Having concerns doesn't make you a racist.

 

Yep, that's why I think happened as well. And the scuffle quickly went in Martin's favor.

[StrangeSox]

And young, and very new to the neighborhood, and there had been burglaries committed by people matching that description. Any halfway decent cop would have plenty of reason right there to stop him and talk (which Zimmerman isn't, obviously). It's not that he's black, it's that he matches a general description. Sorry, man. That's how it is. Descriptions are what get people caught.

 

The 'description' was "black guy." That's it. That doesn't justify stopping any and every black guy walking down the sidewalk. Knowing how this tends to play out in reality, this happens much, much, much more frequently to minorities than it happens to white people.

 

Simply being black while walking down the street should never be a reason to stop somebody, assume they're a criminal and question them as such. That's how systemic racism works, how distrust for the police is built up, how some communities get targeted and policed much more heavily than other communities.

[Soxbadger]

Its a tough one. I just dont like the idea that someone can follow me around and if I get nervous or try and protect myself, he may then have the right to shoot me?

 

It just seems circular. I also think (and correct me if Im wrong) that the fact 911 told Zimmerman to stop pursuing should be strong evidence that Zimmerman should face some consequence.

 

If he had just listened multiple lives arent ruined. The only time you should be a hero like that, is if you actually see a violent crime taking place or imminently going to occur.

 

Zimmerman is likely just a scared guy who freaked out once a real fight started and maybe even legitimately believed he was going to be killed.

 

The situation just should have never happened.

[StrangeSox]

Zimmerman made his mistake being too aggressive. I think his actions (being suspicious not pursuing TM) were justified considering the circumstances. I just think he lost his composure due to the criminal activities and took things into his own hands. He probably thought TM was going to just lay down. He was wrong, there was a scuffle, and the kid got shot dead. GZ could have used context clues and tact to diffuse the situation but I imagine they both went into meathead mode.

 

2nd degree murder is just the wrong charge. Maybe negligent homicide or manslaughter (they might be the same, I'm no lawyer).

 

What were the circumstances here, really? Over the previous year, there had been a few break-ins by some black males. He sees a black male walking down the sidewalk minding his own business. How is that reasonable or justified suspicion?

 

I'm a black man myself and I am even suspicious of black folks. I know what some are capable of. If white people were like that, I'd be suspcious of them to. The fact is, it isn't a case for racism as much being concerned. Racist is like the KKK who just hate to hate. Having concerns doesn't make you a racist.

 

This is where I have to very strongly disagree. Racism is much more than open KKK-style cross burnings an lynchings. It's public policy, it's subconscious prejudices and snap judgments, its treating people differently, even if subtly, and it's seen in the vastly different incarceration and sentencing rates for similar crimes, employment gaps regardless of educational level, prejudice in hiring based on 'funny' names on a resume, etc.

[StrangeSox]

Its a tough one. I just dont like the idea that someone can follow me around and if I get nervous or try and protect myself, he may then have the right to shoot me?

 

It just seems circular. I also think (and correct me if Im wrong) that the fact 911 told Zimmerman to stop pursuing should be strong evidence that Zimmerman should face some consequence.

 

If he had just listened multiple lives arent ruined. The only time you should be a hero like that, is if you actually see a violent crime taking place or imminently going to occur.

 

Zimmerman is likely just a scared guy who freaked out once a real fight started and maybe even legitimately believed he was going to be killed.

 

The situation just should have never happened.

 

Yes, and that's why people need to understand that Zimmerman's actions, from start to finish, were not reasonable.

 

[Soxbadger]

But also not technically illegal.

 

Im pretty sure that most people would have no problem charging someone with assault if they are following people around with a gun in a threatening manner.

 

784.011 Assault.—

 

(1) An "assault" is an intentional, unlawful threat by word or act to do violence to the person of another, coupled with an apparent ability to do so, and doing some act which creates a well-founded fear in such other person that such violence is imminent.

 

(2) Whoever commits an assault shall be guilty of a misdemeanor of the second degree, punishable as provided in s. 775.082 or s. 775.083.

[StrangeSox]

But also not technically illegal.

How the law exists right now, maybe not. I'm not a lawyer and I don't know enough to say for sure.

 

How it should be? It should at least be manslaughter to do what he did. If not for numerous poor decisions and errors in judgement on his part, Martin walks home with his candy or, at worst, gets questioned by the police because of a dumb neighbor.

[Jenksismyhero]

And Martin could have hung up the phone with his friend and called 911 and reported Zimmerman. Or he could have told Zimmerman to f*** off and continued home. But he didn't.

[Balta1701]

And Martin could have hung up the phone with his friend and called 911 and reported Zimmerman. Or he could have told Zimmerman to f*** off and continued home. But he didn't.

Personally if I thought someone was following me, I'd probably change direction a couple times to try to lose them, then pick up the pace first. If that person then got out of the vehicle and came at me, I don't think my response would be "F*** off", I think I'd expect that this person intends to do me harm. Either I'd be sprinting away and screaming or I'd attempt to get the drop on the person before they could do so to me.

[Jenksismyhero]

How the law exists right now, maybe not. I'm not a lawyer and I don't know enough to say for sure.

 

How it should be? It should at least be manslaughter to do what he did. If not for numerous poor decisions and errors in judgement on his part, Martin walks home with his candy or, at worst, gets questioned by the police because of a dumb neighbor.

 

See, I don't agree with this because there could be a legitimate reason for you to follow someone and then something happens. You should have the right to protect yourself if you believe your life is in danger. Period.

 

Just up here this last week (or maybe two weeks ago) there was a guy on the train who got mugged by a group of teens and they took his phone. He and a friend chased one of the teens down and held him as they called police. The rest of the teen's group came back and basically beat the s*** out of the guy whose phone was stolen. I think the victim there had every right to follow the teens in an attempt to get his property back and I think if he were carrying a gun and felt as if his life was in danger he had the right to shoot whoever was beating the s*** out of him.

 

That's obviously different from the Martin case, but also similar in that someone made a bad choice (going after criminals to get a phone) but should still be afforded the right to defend themselves from an attack.

 

If the facts show that Martin attacked Zimmerman just because Zimmerman was tailing him, and Zimmerman felt his life was in danger, then he has every right to defend himself, even if he made poor choices that led to the confrontation.

[zenryan]

Its a tough one. I just dont like the idea that someone can follow me around and if I get nervous or try and protect myself, he may then have the right to shoot me?

 

It just seems circular. I also think (and correct me if Im wrong) that the fact 911 told Zimmerman to stop pursuing should be strong evidence that Zimmerman should face some consequence.

If he had just listened multiple lives arent ruined. The only time you should be a hero like that, is if you actually see a violent crime taking place or imminently going to occur.

 

Zimmerman is likely just a scared guy who freaked out once a real fight started and maybe even legitimately believed he was going to be killed.

 

The situation just should have never happened.

 

 

 

 

He wasnt told to stop. He was told something along the lines that you dont need to do that. The dispatcher even said on the stand that he isnt allowed to tell people what they can and cant do for liability reasons.

 

 

 

[Balta1701]

If the facts show that Martin attacked Zimmerman just because Zimmerman was tailing him, and Zimmerman felt his life was in danger, then he has every right to defend himself, even if he made poor choices that led to the confrontation.

And what drives me nuts is...if Martin felt that the guy tailing him was threatening him, doesn't he have every right to defend himself as well?

 

Both of them have the right to do what they did and the end result is that a kid is dead who should never have been. That's why I keep coming back to the gun. If a guy is following me, it's not unreasonable to assume he's a threat to me and try to defend myself. If I get attacked physically by a guy I was following, it's not unreasonable to try and defend myself.

 

The way you make this situation not happen is to get rid of the gun. That should be the message of this case...dead kids are the end result of armed, untrained, vigilante-wannabees.

[Jenksismyhero]

He wasnt told to stop. He was told something along the lines that you dont need to do that. The dispatcher even said on the stand that he isnt allowed to tell people what they can and cant do for liability reasons.

 

And the head of the homeowners association testified that the cops advised them that it was ok to tail people at a safe distance.

 

O'Brien added that police indicated it was acceptable to follow suspicious persons at a safe distance. He also said he signed an agreement with police to increase patrol of the area and to tow illegally parked cars.

 

http://www.freep.com/article/20130625/NEWS...rial-statements

 

I'm not sure that I've heard a reason why Zimmerman was so close to Martin. Is his story that Martin came after him?