Trayvon Martin

[mr_genius]

crazy-ass douchbag that thinks he is gonna up his street cred by taking care of this crazy-ass cracker

 

possible. Martin did like to boast about how he was a crime committing gangster. his beat down of George Zimmerman would certainly increase his gangster persona.

Edited July 12, 2013 by mr_genius

[EvilMonkey]

So because teenage kids are idiots, you are going to keep parroting idiocy?

If you think they are in a super small minority, you must be living in a bubble. There was even a Facebook page about killing Zimmerman with 6000 likes before it got shut down. You thihk Al Sharpton is just going to let it go, or is he gonna start screaming that justice wasn't served and knowingly or not encourage someone to administer justice for Tarvon?

[Soxbadger]

The other point that cannot be driven home enough is this:

 

Martin was not breaking the law. Zimmerman followed a 17 year old kid while carrying a firearm. Zimmerman's act of following Martin led to the confrontation. As a result, Martin is dead. Anyone that fails to see the tragedy in Martin's death... I just don't know what to say...

 

This point is lost on some people and always will be lost on some people.

 

They do not see themselves in Martin, they see themselves as Zimmermans, and so they empathize and create a story where a man can shoot a teenager and we can all sit around and say:

 

"Well lets just chalk this up to bad things happening"

 

"Just another unfortunate case of mistaken identity"

[CrimsonWeltall]

Look at a map of the neighborhood. the sidewalk was between the rows of houses, not bordering the street. That is why Zimmerman had to get out of his car. The only reason to be on that sidewalk is if your house is on that sidewalk. Being unrecognized, he is suspicious.

 

The house Martin was walking to WAS on that sidewalk. Martin also walked on the sidewalks next to the street all the way up until that point (per Zimmerman, who was following him in his car).

[iamshack]

Look at a map of the neighborhood. the sidewalk was between the rows of houses, not bordering the street. That is why Zimmerman had to get out of his car. The only reason to be on that sidewalk is if your house is on that sidewalk. Being unrecognized, he is suspicious.

Wait, so it is fine for Zimmerman to carry a gun; that is perfectly legal. But it is suspicious for Martin to be walking around on the sidewalk?

[illinilaw08]

Look at a map of the neighborhood. the sidewalk was between the rows of houses, not bordering the street. That is why Zimmerman had to get out of his car. The only reason to be on that sidewalk is if your house is on that sidewalk. Being unrecognized, he is suspicious.

 

Were those sidewalks on private property? Do you need a permit to be on the those sidewalks? Was Martin engaging in some kind of illegal behavior by walking on the sidewalks?

 

Prior to Zimmerman following Martin, Martin was not breaking any laws. Zimmerman followed him. Martin ends up dead. That death is a tragedy.

[EvilMonkey]

Were those sidewalks on private property? Do you need a permit to be on the those sidewalks? Was Martin engaging in some kind of illegal behavior by walking on the sidewalks?

 

Prior to Zimmerman following Martin, Martin was not breaking any laws. Zimmerman followed him. Martin ends up dead. That death is a tragedy.

he was UNRECOGNIZED by the neighborhood watch. He called reporting someone he didn't know walking in the dark and rain, in an area where there had been recent breakins and followed. I see zero wrong with any of that.

[Jenksismyhero]

This point is lost on some people and always will be lost on some people.

 

They do not see themselves in Martin, they see themselves as Zimmermans, and so they empathize and create a story where a man can shoot a teenager and we can all sit around and say:

 

"Well lets just chalk this up to bad things happening"

 

"Just another unfortunate case of mistaken identity"

 

I don't think that's lost on most people. But why make two tragedies by putting a guy in jail for life (since you would have preferred murder 1 charges) over a dumb decision?

[iamshack]

I hate having to repeat the same things over and over again. 911 operators have no legal authority. It's like your buddy telling you to not do something.

I don't think it is a matter of whether the 911 operator has any legal authority.

 

It goes to the fact that someone that works in an area where they would be exposed to conflicts, crimes, accidents, murders, etc advised him not to continue following Martin.

 

911 operators are trained on how to advise people who call them, are they not?

[Soxbadger]

I don't think that's lost on most people. But why make two tragedies by putting a guy in jail for life (since you would have preferred murder 1 charges) over a dumb decision?

 

I never said Id prefer Murder 1 charges.

 

I have said manslaughter from the beginning.

 

Your now basically arguing that no one should ever go to jail over a bad decision, because its just more tragedy.

 

Got a dui and killed someone, why should your family have to suffer because of a dumb decision?

 

Id say most people who go to jail would say that they made a "dumb decision", the point is to prevent people from making said dumb decision.

[iamshack]

he was UNRECOGNIZED by the neighborhood watch. He called reporting someone he didn't know walking in the dark and rain, in an area where there had been recent breakins and followed. I see zero wrong with any of that.

I guess I feel like we have police officers for a reason. When you try to assume the role of the police, and you are not trained to do so, bad things happen.

 

If enough people were to do this, it sort of encourages more people to feel as though they need to be carrying guns because it just isn't safe anymore.

 

Then all the sudden everyone is walking around with guns and these sort of misunderstandings begin occurring exponentially more frequently.

[mr_genius]

Id semi-agree, the problem I have with 1 is that Martin was absolutely aware that Zimmerman was following him. So to me that indicates it was not "reasonable" because it was close enough that someone noticed and changed their actions due to the following.

 

The only way I can really justify "self-defense" is if there was some evidence that Martin was out that night looking for trouble. Because even just "hiding to ambush" could merely be Martin trying to "self defend".

 

And that is ultimately the problem, can 2 people both be using "self-defense" at the same time, to therefore make it impossible for either party to be charged with the crime?

 

My answer would be no. I would actually think that if both parties are "defending" that means neither party really is, and thus both should be able to be convicted.

 

Since Martin is dead we cant punish him, but if this had gone different (martin just being wounded), I would have absolutely been fine with both Martin and Zimmerman facing battery charges.

 

the double self-defense aspect of the case is pretty interesting.

[illinilaw08]

he was UNRECOGNIZED by the neighborhood watch. He called reporting someone he didn't know walking in the dark and rain, in an area where there had been recent breakins and followed. I see zero wrong with any of that.

 

Who the hell cares if he's unrecognized by the neighborhood watch? He's walking on the freaking sidewalk... Martin is NOT BREAKING THE LAW!! He's not creating a disturbance. He's not peering in windows.

 

If all Zimmerman does is call the cops, Martin is severely inconvenienced, but he's still alive. If Zimmerman does not follow Martin, Martin does not die that night. That fact is absolutely not subject to dispute. Do you see zero wrong with that as well?

[Jenksismyhero]

I never said Id prefer Murder 1 charges.

 

I have said manslaughter from the beginning.

 

Your now basically arguing that no one should ever go to jail over a bad decision, because its just more tragedy.

 

Got a dui and killed someone, why should your family have to suffer because of a dumb decision?

 

Id say most people who go to jail would say that they made a "dumb decision", the point is to prevent people from making said dumb decision.

 

You were referring to you acting as Martin. My mistake.

 

And stop with your overreacting to everything I say. Jesus f***ing Christ. I'm not saying no one should go to jail. I'm saying if you're wrong in your assessment of the facts, and Zimmerman did what Mr. Genius laid out, then he could potentially be in jail for the rest of his life for not being patient enough to wait for the cops. That too, is sad and shouldn't be forgotten.

[Jenksismyhero]

I guess I feel like we have police officers for a reason. When you try to assume the role of the police, and you are not trained to do so, bad things happen.

 

If enough people were to do this, it sort of encourages more people to feel as though they need to be carrying guns because it just isn't safe anymore.

 

Then all the sudden everyone is walking around with guns and these sort of misunderstandings begin occurring exponentially more frequently.

 

Ask the people of Detroit how waiting for the cops works out (an old clip but still good):

 

 

I get your general sentiment, but police departments and cops aren't good all the time. They're slow. They're ineffective. I have no problem with people taking the initiative to clean up their neighborhood. With limits, obviously.

Edited July 12, 2013 by Jenksismybitch

[iamshack]

<!--quoteo(post=2835304:date=Jul 12, 2013 -> 12:30 PM:name=iamshack)-->

<!--quotec-->I guess I feel like we have police officers for a reason. When you try to assume the role of the police, and you are not trained to do so, bad things happen.

 

If enough people were to do this, it sort of encourages more people to feel as though they need to be carrying guns because it just isn't safe anymore.

 

Then all the sudden everyone is walking around with guns and these sort of misunderstandings begin occurring exponentially more frequently.

 

Ask the people of Detroit how waiting for the cops works out (an old clip but still good):

 

 

I get your general sentiment, but police departments and cops aren't good all the time. They're slow. They're ineffective. I have no problem with people taking the initiative to clean up their neighborhood. With limits, obviously.

And if you are going to chose to follow people with a loaded gun, you should probably be a little more prepared to deal with potential altercations than Zimmerman was.

 

I'm sorry, but when you choose to carry a firearm, there is a very implicit responsibility you take on, especially if you are going to carry that firearm while pursuing those you suspect to be criminals on foot.

 

This is like me deciding I want to make a piece of furniture myself because it takes 12 weeks for the store to deliver it to me. I decide to use all the fancy power saws and tools. Then I am surprised when I saw my finger off.

 

You honestly don't see the exponential increase in the possibility of danger and generally horrible altercations when you start encouraging untrained individuals to carry firearms and approach suspected criminals?

[EvilMonkey]

And if you are going to chose to follow people with a loaded gun, you should probably be a little more prepared to deal with potential altercations than Zimmerman was.

 

I'm sorry, but when you choose to carry a firearm, there is a very implicit responsibility you take on, especially if you are going to carry that firearm while pursuing those you suspect to be criminals on foot.

 

This is like me deciding I want to make a piece of furniture myself because it takes 12 weeks for the store to deliver it to me. I decide to use all the fancy power saws and tools. Then I am surprised when I saw my finger off.

 

You honestly don't see the exponential increase in the possibility of danger and generally horrible altercations when you start encouraging untrained individuals to carry firearms and approach suspected criminals?

 

You honestly don't see the exponential increase in the possibility of danger and generally horrible altercations when you start attacking people who are following you because you think they are crazy-ass crackers?

[iamshack]

No idea what their training consists of. All I know is that their advice holds no legal power.

Neither would the advice of a police officer speaking to Zimmerman over the phone.

 

That isn't the point.

 

The point is that a trained professional advised him not to do something. That is evidence that his actions were potentially dangerous and therefore it is not surprising that something like this occurred.

[iamshack]

You honestly don't see the exponential increase in the possibility of danger and generally horrible altercations when you start attacking people who are following you because you think they are crazy-ass crackers?

When juxtaposed against the potential for those things to happen as a result of this person following you already?

 

No, I don't.

[pettie4sox]

GZ's life is super f***ed. He'll have to leave the country if he's not convicted. The man will truly never be free. That in itself supports two tragedies already.

[iamshack]

What? A police officer telling him to not do something WOULD have legal repercussions even if it's over the phone.

So if he was speaking to Sgt. Joe at the police department, reporting this to their non-emergency line, and Sgt. Joe says to Zimmerman, "stop following the suspect," and Zimmerman continues to do so anyways, you are telling me the police are going to charge him for something?

[CrimsonWeltall]

You honestly don't see the exponential increase in the possibility of danger and generally horrible altercations when you start attacking people who are following you because you think they are crazy-ass crackers?

 

There's no evidence outside of Zimmerman's word that Martin attacked him.

 

iamshack's question was based on the facts, yours is based on speculation.

[illinilaw08]

You honestly don't see the exponential increase in the possibility of danger and generally horrible altercations when you start attacking people who are following you because you think they are crazy-ass crackers?

 

I have used this example in this thread before... but if someone were following my wife when she was out on a run... speeding up when she sped up, slowing down when she slowed down, I would think it would be reasonable for my wife to spray that person with pepper spray.

 

Taking the slur out of the equation, Martin would be pretty reasonable in think the person who was following him was a crazy-ass.

 

Of the actions in this case, I find Martin attacking the person that is following him (if that is in fact what happened) as being much more reasonable than the action of the person following him in the first place.

[StrangeSox]

I still come back to the example of the subway robber. Your s*** is stolen by a mob of teens, you go after them, they end up jumping you and beating you until the brink of death and you shoot and kill on of them (unarmed) in self defense.

 

Yeah, see, Trayvon was walking down the street minding his own damn business. This is not remotely similar.

[StrangeSox]

Nice to see all the people on here who would just do nothing if they noticed a strange person walking around their neighborhood in the dark rain for 20 minutes or more, when the whole neighborhood is only about 3 blocks long. Don't look twice at him, that might be profiling, and certainly don't call the police, if he happens to be black that's racist.

 

I wouldn't do anything because I saw a black kid walking down the sidewalk talking on his phone in some light rain. You're pretty paranoid and dumb if you freak out and call the police over it.