Trayvon Martin

[lostfan]

Which is exactly why Zimmerman has the right to call the police, but not to pursue the kid. He clearly wasn't trained on how to deal with the situation once confronted. If he stays in his car, the police probably don't end up killing the kid. Yes, some people might get pissed off that a black kid got stopped and questioned when he wasn't doing anything wrong, but at least the larger tragedy is avoided.

+1

[Soxbadger]

Yeah im not sure anyone is saying that Zimmerman cant call the police, or calling the police is a bad thing.

 

I think its the entire "taking justice into your own hands" that most of us find troubling. I hate to say it but in the grand scheme of things a house being robbed is not worth an innocent life.

 

If you go through the outcomes of Zimmerman's actions, there are very few that are "good", most of them very from bad to extremely bad.

[StrangeSox]

Which is exactly why Zimmerman has the right to call the police, but not to pursue the kid. He clearly wasn't trained on how to deal with the situation once confronted. If he stays in his car, the police probably don't end up killing the kid. Yes, some people might get pissed off that a black kid got stopped and questioned when he wasn't doing anything wrong, but at least the larger tragedy is avoided.

 

I can agree with this with the caveat that, while he has the right, I think he was wrong to call the police.

 

And that's why so many people are upset about this. Zimmerman made one really poor decision after another, wound up killing a 17 year old kid who had just been walking back from the store and he is legally justified.

[Soxbadger]

I have to disagree. Even if his motives were entirely racist, he can call the police if he truly believed something bad was going to go down.

 

Its then up to the police to use their judgment to determine whether it is worth actually investigating. It hurts no one for a cop car to drive by Trayvon and ask "Hey are you lost, do you need a ride somewhere?"

[iamshack]

I'm not even saying they're dog-whistling their racism here. I'm saying they are explicitly saying that a young black male in a hoodie is in a "uniform." That "uniform" is supposedly the uniform of a criminal thug. This editorial said it, Geraldo said it, plenty of people have said it. Young black men in "uniform" should be viewed suspiciously because they're young black men wearing a hoodie.

 

But when does this sort of talk apply to white people? How many white people out for a run or a walk get the police called on them because they're suspicious? How much talk has focused on, say, the local high school track team's thug uniform? Hoodies are everywhere, worn by people of all races and ages and genders, but it's a "uniform" only for black men.

 

I wouldn't point to police training as racially neutral, either. Our justice system has a pretty terrible track record.

Well, I agree with much of what you are saying.

 

However, the hooded sweatshirt was associated with criminals and criminal behavior well before African American males began wearing it as a fashion statement.

 

I think part of the culture in poor areas or ghettos (regardless of what the ethnicity or race of the people inhabiting them) is to adopt part of the identity of criminals, because they are sometimes admired due to the fact that police or establishment is universally loathed or despised. If that is the case, the reason the "uniform" is suspicious is not entirely due to the person wearing it, but because it was long associated with criminals or criminal behavior in the first place.

[StrangeSox]

I have to disagree. Even if his motives were entirely racist, he can call the police if he truly believed something bad was going to go down.

 

Its then up to the police to use their judgment to determine whether it is worth actually investigating. It hurts no one for a cop car to drive by Trayvon and ask "Hey are you lost, do you need a ride somewhere?"

 

I'm not saying that he can't, I'm saying that his judgement was horrible and that he shouldn't have.

 

I'd argue that, when aggregated, it does hurt people. If many young black men are unfairly profiled as criminals, reported to the police and questioned, that is going to have an effect.

[StrangeSox]

Well, I agree with much of what you are saying.

 

However, the hooded sweatshirt was associated with criminals and criminal behavior well before African American males began wearing it as a fashion statement.

 

I think part of the culture in poor areas or ghettos (regardless of what the ethnicity or race of the people inhabiting them) is to adopt part of the identity of criminals, because they are sometimes admired due to the fact that police or establishment is universally loathed or despised. If that is the case, the reason the "uniform" is suspicious is not entirely due to the person wearing it, but because it was long associated with criminals or criminal behavior in the first place.

 

But again, it's only associated with criminal behavior for certain people. I wear hoodies all the time. So does my wife, my brothers, my mom, but nobody would profile them as criminals based on that. Nobody associates Bill Bilicheck with criminal behavior because of his hoodie. Nobody would write a column in a national newspaper talking about the "uniform" they're wearing.

[iamshack]

I'm not saying that he can't, I'm saying that his judgement was horrible and that he shouldn't have.

 

I'd argue that, when aggregated, it does hurt people. If many young black men are unfairly profiled as criminals, reported to the police and questioned, that is going to have an effect.

Well the obvious problem with that is that it is pulling the police away from genuine criminals.

[StrangeSox]

Well the obvious problem with that is that it is pulling the police away from genuine criminals.

It also breeds distrust and resentment of the police and the justice system in general and perpetuates the racial stereotypes.

 

edit: and leads to more false convictions, more harassment, more incarceration and continued poverty issues

Edited July 16, 2013 by StrangeSox

[Y2HH]

I don't get racism or racists (TRUE racists, that is), because who the f*** has the time for this kind of empty hate bulls***?

 

I have a life to lead, a job, a family, bills, kids, a future to plan...so why would anyway want to spend what precious free time they actually get on stupid s*** like hating someone because of a physical attribute they have no control over? How about you judge them based on their actions growing up, and as a person, instead? You know, things they actually CAN have some control over.

 

I won't pretend to go out of my way to show people I'm not racist...I just don't care. I'm sure there are plenty of black people out there I'd dislike for various reasons if I was exposed to them on a daily basis, just as they're are plenty of white people I'd hate for the same reasons, or of whatever color. Considering all the s***bags in this world, be they white, black, brown or blue, I'm glad I've lived a life and had jobs in which I only have to interact with relatively educated people of all colors, and that probably has a lot to do with my attitude toward others.

 

I'm a dick to everyone...and I'm nice to everyone. And believe me, it's not because of how they dress or what color their skin is. I have better things to do. Like post here. Wait.

[iamshack]

But again, it's only associated with criminal behavior for certain people. I wear hoodies all the time. So does my wife, my brothers, my mom, but nobody would profile them as criminals based on that. Nobody associates Bill Bilicheck with criminal behavior because of his hoodie. Nobody would write a column in a national newspaper talking about the "uniform" they're wearing.

Well, at the risk of sounding racist, in my limited observation, I see more of those certain people wearing them with the hood over their head and/or face then your typical suburban soccer mom. Bill Belichik wears his while he is coaching football, and not walking down the street on his phone. Even still, he actually is teased about it quite a bit.

 

I agree with you that people see the person wearing the piece of clothing and allow it to influence their opinion of them, but it isn't entirely because of the person wearing it. It's how they wear it, where they wear it, when they wear it, AND, the associations that already existed prior to when that group of certain people really began wearing it as a fashion statement.

[iamshack]

It also breeds distrust and resentment of the police and the justice system in general and perpetuates the racial stereotypes.

 

edit: and leads to more false convictions, more harassment, more incarceration and continued poverty issues

Yeah, I didn't state that because I felt it was even more obvious than what I pointed out as obvious.

[Jenksismyhero]

Well, I agree with much of what you are saying.

 

However, the hooded sweatshirt was associated with criminals and criminal behavior well before African American males began wearing it as a fashion statement.

 

I think part of the culture in poor areas or ghettos (regardless of what the ethnicity or race of the people inhabiting them) is to adopt part of the identity of criminals, because they are sometimes admired due to the fact that police or establishment is universally loathed or despised. If that is the case, the reason the "uniform" is suspicious is not entirely due to the person wearing it, but because it was long associated with criminals or criminal behavior in the first place.

 

Just like a white guy wearing a wife beater is, well, a wife beater, or a Hispanic male wearing a bandanna and a collared shirt with the top button buttoned is a thug.

 

SS, I feel like your incessant need to scream racist! about every race-related opinion diminishes ACTUAL racism. It's the same reason half of society tunes out Jesse Jackson and Al Sharpton immediately. Moreover, I find it hard to believe Zimmerman is racist for thinking Martin in a hoodie might be up to no good when you and I both know if Martin was wearing khakis and a dress shirt he wouldn't have done anything. So clearly it's not just the fact he's black, it's his clothing and actions coupled with recent events in his neighborhood.

Edited July 16, 2013 by Jenksismybitch

[Jenksismyhero]

Well, at the risk of sounding racist, in my limited observation, I see more of those certain people wearing them with the hood over their head and/or face then your typical suburban soccer mom. Bill Belichik wears his while he is coaching football, and not walking down the street on his phone. Even still, he actually is teased about it quite a bit.

I agree with you that people see the person wearing the piece of clothing and allow it to influence their opinion of them, but it isn't entirely because of the person wearing it. It's how they wear it, where they wear it, when they wear it, AND, the associations that already existed prior to when that group of certain people really began wearing it as a fashion statement.

 

If we start seeing middle aged white guys committing lots of crime while wearing hoodies on the nightly news, i'm sure society would respond the same way.

Edited July 16, 2013 by Jenksismybitch

[Y2HH]

But again, it's only associated with criminal behavior for certain people. I wear hoodies all the time. So does my wife, my brothers, my mom, but nobody would profile them as criminals based on that. Nobody associates Bill Bilicheck with criminal behavior because of his hoodie. Nobody would write a column in a national newspaper talking about the "uniform" they're wearing.

 

It's unfair, but because one person can get away with doing something and another person can't, the only thing you can do about it NOT try to get away with it, DESPITE how unfair it is.

 

Is it fair that one of the religious symbols used in Buddhism is a 90 degree Swastika and I can't wear one around my neck because Hitler decided to turn it 45 degrees and turn it into the one of the most vile symbols ever seen, DESPITE it being a completely different symbol in that it's turned 90 instead of 45? No, it's not fair, but if I ran around wearing one people would profile me...and I'd expect it. Being a blonde/blue eyed American with a German name/ancestry doesn't help, either...but that had f*** all to do with me.

Edited July 16, 2013 by Y2HH

[StrangeSox]

It's unfair, but because one person can get away with doing something and another person can't, the only thing you can do about it NOT try to get away with it, DESPITE how unfair it is.

 

Is it fair that the religious symbol for Buddhism is a 90 degree Swastika and I can't wear one around my neck because Hitler decided to turn it 45 degrees and turn it into the one of the most vile symbols ever seen, DESPITE it being a completely different symbol in that it's turned 90 instead of 45? No, it's not fair, but if I ran around wearing one people would profile me...and I'd expect it.

 

Black men should tailor their clothing choices based on racist stereotypes of them?

[StrangeSox]

Just like a white guy wearing a wife beater is, well, a wife beater, or a Hispanic male wearing a bandanna and a collared shirt with the top button buttoned is a thug.

 

Poor white people and hispanics are also unfairly stereotyped.

 

SS, I feel like your incessant need to scream racist! about every race-related opinion diminishes ACTUAL racism. It's the same reason half of society tunes out Jesse Jackson and Al Sharpton immediately. Moreover, I find it hard to believe Zimmerman is racist for thinking Martin in a hoodie might be up to no good when you and I both know if Martin was wearing khakis and a dress shirt he wouldn't have done anything. So clearly it's not just the fact he's black, it's his clothing and actions coupled with recent events in his neighborhood.

I feel you incessant need to pretend that racism isn't a very real thing perpetuates racism. Half of society tunes out discussions of racism because they're white.

[iamshack]

Black men should tailor their clothing choices based on racist stereotypes of them?

No, but wouldn't you say it's fair that common sense says not to wear things that are generally associated with criminal behavior?

[StrangeSox]

If we start seeing middle aged white guys committing lots of crime while wearing hoodies on the nightly news, i'm sure society would respond the same way.

See, in one post you tell me that I 'scream racism!' too much and in the very next post you try to justify racial stereotyping black men in hoodies.

[Y2HH]

Black men should tailor their clothing choices based on racist stereotypes of them?

 

I would if I was black. How's that for an answer?

 

I just gave an example in which we all do it to some extent. It's not fair, but we do it...and I'd go out of my f***ing way to do it if I knew it was going to get me cross looks in public. Is it fair that I can't wear shorts and a hockey jersey to work or they'd look at me like a scumbag and profile me as such? Nope. Clothing doesn't make me who I am, but I know how I'd get looked at for doing it, so I don't.

[StrangeSox]

No, but wouldn't you say it's fair that common sense says not to wear things that are generally associated with criminal behavior?

I'm going to say it again, but it's only "associated with criminal behavior" for non-whites. Pragmatically, is this something non-whites have to consider? Unfortunately, yes. That doesn't mean we should accept it as an unchangeable fact of nature, though. It's like blaming a girl who was wearing a skirt for getting raped. No, f*** that, blame the rapist and blame the people clinging to racial stereotypes that view black men as criminals.

[iamshack]

I would if I was black. How's that for an answer?

 

I just gave an example in which we all do it to some extent. It's not fair, but we do it...and I'd go out of my f***ing way to do it if I knew it was going to get me cross looks in public. Is it fair that I can't wear shorts and a hockey jersey to work or they'd look at me like a scumbag and profile me as such? Nope. Clothing doesn't make me who I am, but I know how I'd get looked at for doing it, so I don't.

Well would you be shocked if you decided to wear a black ski mask at night if someone looked at you suspiciously, even if it was cold as hell outside?

[Y2HH]

I'm going to say it again, but it's only "associated with criminal behavior" for non-whites. Pragmatically, is this something non-whites have to consider? Unfortunately, yes. That doesn't mean we should accept it as an unchangeable fact of nature, though. It's like blaming a girl who was wearing a skirt for getting raped. No, f*** that, blame the rapist and blame the people clinging to racial stereotypes that view black men as criminals.

 

I think we agree, just from different viewpoints.

 

It's NOT fair, but it is what it is. Therefore, I'd go out of my way to NOT "look the part". For f***s sakes, it's just cloths, change them.

[StrangeSox]

I would if I was black. How's that for an answer?

 

I just gave an example in which we all do it to some extent. It's not fair, but we do it...and I'd go out of my f***ing way to do it if I knew it was going to get me cross looks in public. Is it fair that I can't wear shorts and a hockey jersey to work or they'd look at me like a scumbag and profile me as such? Nope. Clothing doesn't make me who I am, but I know how I'd get looked at for doing it, so I don't.

 

This was cross-posted with my response to shack, but the same thing applies. Pragmatically, it is something some people have to consider because of racist stereotypes. But that doesn't mean that we as a society need to accept and perpetuate these stereotypes.

[StrangeSox]

For f***s sakes, it's just cloths, change them.

 

I'd rather we change society to eliminate this type of bulls***, though.