Trayvon Martin

[southsider2k5]

IIRC, there are WAY more whites in poverty than blacks in terms of total numbers.

 

Also worth pointing out that teh states with the highest poverty rates aren't the highest crime states in the union.

[Balta1701]

IIRC, there are WAY more whites in poverty than blacks in terms of total numbers.

However, the fraction of African American children who have elevated lead concentrations in their blood is much, much higher than for white Americans. The average lead measurement for whites in poverty is comparable to the lead concentrations for Africans above the poverty line, and as a number of people are now harping on...lead exposure in children is an incredibly effective predictor for violent crime in adult years.

 

If we replace "poverty" with "lead poisoning", African Americans hit that statistic 10x as much as whites.

[Texsox]

I would think statistically, if a group makes up a certain percentage, they would commit that percentage of crimes across the board. IE, if whites are 78% of the population, they should be responsible for 78% of crimes versus whites, 78% of crimes versus blacks, etc.

 

 

If I understand Balta's point, the stat he mentioned doesn't mention percentage of the overall crimes. It starts with 100% of all crimes committed where a black person is the victim, and of that 100%, 10% are committed by whites. Then taking 100% of the crimes where a white person is the victims, 13% of those are committed by blacks.

[pettie4sox]

IIRC, there are WAY more whites in poverty than blacks in terms of total numbers.

 

That's cherry picking. You completely ignored the other factors I listed.

[Texsox]

Also worth pointing out that teh states with the highest poverty rates aren't the highest crime states in the union.

 

That is a strong point. Poverty isn't the only predictor of criminal activity.

 

Could that be explained by "you need somebody to rob"? For there to be prostiution, you need people with disposable income, same with illegal gambling, theft, etc.

[Texsox]

IIRC, there are WAY more whites in poverty than blacks in terms of total numbers.

 

 

Which is something us liberals like to point out when discussing social programs and rejecting the myth that the majority of that money goes to inner city minorities. The biggest group are single white mothers living outside of the major cities.

[southsider2k5]

If I understand Balta's point, the stat he mentioned doesn't mention percentage of the overall crimes. It starts with 100% of all crimes committed where a black person is the victim, and of that 100%, 10% are committed by whites. Then taking 100% of the crimes where a white person is the victims, 13% of those are committed by blacks.

 

I get that, but if the composition of the group is 50% of one kind, you would think that 50% of all crimes across the board would be committed by that group, across all levels.

[DukeNukeEm]

However, the fraction of African American children who have elevated lead concentrations in their blood is much, much higher than for white Americans. The average lead measurement for whites in poverty is comparable to the lead concentrations for Africans above the poverty line, and as a number of people are now harping on...lead exposure in children is an incredibly effective predictor for violent crime in adult years.

 

If we replace "poverty" with "lead poisoning", African Americans hit that statistic 10x as much as whites.

At some point you're going to have to hold someone personally responsible for their actions, not blaming lead content.

[Balta1701]

At some point you're going to have to hold someone personally responsible for their actions, not blaming lead content.

Yeah, because if there's one thing we fail to do with the African American community, it's "hold them accountable for their actions". I mean, if we did that, then large fractions of them would be in jail and they'd be much more likely to be arrested for crimes like drug possession than whites even if they use at the same rates.

 

Oh wait, they are.

[Texsox]

I get that, but if the composition of the group is 50% of one kind, you would think that 50% of all crimes across the board would be committed by that group, across all levels.

 

 

Yes. But that is a different stat. And if you think about it the stat would be which group gets caught, arrested, prosecuted, or convicted more. We could never truthfully have a stat of who commits the most crimes. Even this stat has flaws. If, for example, one group does not believe anything will happen if they report a crime committed by another group, they may choose not to report that crime. Even worse, if they believe there would be retribution for reporting the crime, they may be intimidated into not reporting.

 

Finally, I'm not certain what conclusion we should draw. I believe it really comes down to nature versus nurture. Does this one group commit more crimes because of environmental factors, poverty, lead poisoning, boredom, etc. or is it just in their nature to commit crimes?

 

I believe we could all agree there are circumstances we would commit a crime. Generally revolving around our children or spouse.

[Texsox]

At some point you're going to have to hold someone personally responsible for their actions, not blaming lead content.

 

That is an excellent point. While, Balta does bring up a nice counter, that people are held responsible, I think we would have broad agreement that the point where the individuals are held accountable today is too far down the path. Kids are allowed to slide on stuff, beginning at home, then in school, then in society, before we say enough is enough. Let's forgive this kid for hitting his brother because he's been sucking the lead paint off his crib. It's not his fault.

[Balta1701]

That is an excellent point. While, Balta does bring up a nice counter, that people are held responsible, I think we would have broad agreement that the point where the individuals are held accountable today is too far down the path. Kids are allowed to slide on stuff, beginning at home, then in school, then in society, before we say enough is enough. Let's forgive this kid for hitting his brother because he's been sucking the lead paint off his crib. It's not his fault.

Are you of the opinion that punishment for crime in the African American community is not harsh enough?

[EvilMonkey]

Are you of the opinion that punishment for crime in the African American community is not harsh enough?

Sounded like what he is saying is that they are excused way too much when younger that it leads to overkill when older.

[Texsox]

Are you of the opinion that punishment for crime in the African American community is not harsh enough?

 

No, in fact I've seen statistics to the effect that it is harsher than other ethnic groups for the same crime. I believe as a society we are too lax in the formative years (for everyone) and only when things have progressed too far do we begin to enforce any consequences. If we applied correction sooner, it could be lesser.

[Texsox]

Sounded like what he is saying is that they are excused way too much when younger that it leads to overkill when older.

 

Exactly, and by "they" I mean everyone, not just blacks.

[pettie4sox]

Tex, I agree with this sentiment. When I was younger, I got my ass whooped when I did wrong. My parents actually cared for me and explained that my actions would have consequences. Some of these troubled youth do not have the luxury of caring parents. Most children, are simply a product of their environment. That's why when I stated earlier that criminal behavior is a product of multiple entities coming together.

[Balta1701]

Tex, I agree with this sentiment. When I was younger, I got my ass whooped when I did wrong. My parents actually cared for me and explained that my actions would have consequences. Some of these troubled youth do not have the luxury of caring parents. Most children, are simply a product of their environment. That's why when I stated earlier that criminal behavior is a product of multiple entities coming together.

I know this will be a thread hijack, but all of the best research suggests this is a terrible thing and produces vastly more troubled youth.

[EvilMonkey]

Tex, I agree with this sentiment. When I was younger, I got my ass whooped when I did wrong. My parents actually cared for me and explained that my actions would have consequences. Some of these troubled youth do not have the luxury of caring parents. Most children, are simply a product of their environment. That's why when I stated earlier that criminal behavior is a product of multiple entities coming together.

Why aren't you in jail then! And all your contemporaries! Hell, I got whooped too. Not often, but often enough you never wanted it again. Somehow I managed to avoid jail for most of my life. it was just back then, if some adult said you were breaking windows or something, your parents believed THEM, and you got in trouble. Now, you can get caught on video and parents will insist that their kid is an angel and that it never happened.

[pettie4sox]

I know this will be a thread hijack, but all of the best research suggests this is a terrible thing and produces vastly more troubled youth.

 

You're not the only one to bring that to my attention. I think there is organized discipline and reckless discipline. If you just beat your kids senseless of course it'll have negative repercussions. However, my parents when they decided to discipline us, would tell us why it was necessary before doing the deed. Obviously, there is no way to predict how a child will respond to whatever but I'm not sure how elaborate the research is to deal with varying variables.

[EvilMonkey]

I know this will be a thread hijack, but all of the best research suggests this is a terrible thing and produces vastly more troubled youth.

Because we all know that time outs are so much more effective. And by more effective I mean not.

[pettie4sox]

Why aren't you in jail then! And all your contemporaries! Hell, I got whooped too. Not often, but often enough you never wanted it again. Somehow I managed to avoid jail for most of my life. it was just back then, if some adult said you were breaking windows or something, your parents believed THEM, and you got in trouble. Now, you can get caught on video and parents will insist that their kid is an angel and that it never happened.

 

LOL at the green text = sarcasm quip that has started here. I'm a firm believer that bad parenting is probably the biggest factor as to why there are so many little s***s running the streets today. Parents try to be their children's friend (or they just straight neglect them) instead of a parent that will get them ready for the real world. Chances are though, most of today's parents did not have those parents so the cycle continues.

[Texsox]

Why aren't you in jail then! And all your contemporaries! Hell, I got whooped too. Not often, but often enough you never wanted it again. Somehow I managed to avoid jail for most of my life. it was just back then, if some adult said you were breaking windows or something, your parents believed THEM, and you got in trouble. Now, you can get caught on video and parents will insist that their kid is an angel and that it never happened.

 

Hardly happens today. Parents "stick up for their kids", etc. There is probably a balance somewhere between the extremes.

[mr_genius]

it was just back then, if some adult said you were breaking windows or something, your parents believed THEM, and you got in trouble. Now, you can get caught on video and parents will insist that their kid is an angel and that it never happened.

 

yep

[Balta1701]

George Zimmerman arrested again, this time allegedly pointed a shotgun at his girlfriend.

[Kyyle23]

Zimmerman seems determined to spend time in a cell. His lawyer should explain the concept "keep a low profile" to him