Trayvon Martin

[Kyyle23]

Being black and walking while otherwise minding your business is apparently a valid reason to call 911. Comforting to know that's the country that I live in and that's what people see when I'm not wearing a suit or playing with my son or doing something else inherently non-threatening.

 

I almost filed an anonymous amber alert when you posted a picture with you and your son at the beach on FB

[lostfan]

I almost filed an anonymous amber alert when you posted a picture with you and your son at the beach on FB

Because he's so damn light he looks like a white boy

[Y2HH]

Being black and walking while otherwise minding your business is apparently a valid reason to call 911. Comforting to know that's the country that I live in and that's what people see when I'm not wearing a suit or playing with my son or doing something else inherently non-threatening.

 

Unfortunately, there is nothing that can stop a person from doing this. People profile, all the time, all around us, and we usually don't even notice it.

[StrangeSox]

I just noticed Trayvon's name is spelled in the title and now it bothers me but because I'm a s***ty mod I can't change it.

yeah I've asked that it be changed in the thread a couple of times out of embarrassment but it always gets buried.

[Kyyle23]

Because he's so damn light he looks like a white boy

 

that is such a racist statement

[Soxbadger]

Being black and walking while otherwise minding your business is apparently a valid reason to call 911. Comforting to know that's the country that I live in and that's what people see when I'm not wearing a suit or playing with my son or doing something else inherently non-threatening.

 

Hey now, its perfectly reasonable for adults to follow teenagers around. Im sure that everyone in this thread would have no problem with an armed adult following their child around at night. Especially if that adult already has had violence issues in the past.

 

These are just reasonable things that you want happening in your neighborhood.

 

I dont really care about the verdict, its better that 10 guilty men go free than 1 innocent man be convicted, I just think that the idea that this is "reasonable" is pretty bizarre. I also think that a lot of the opinions may be different if some roles were reversed.

[StrangeSox]

Unfortunately, there is nothing that can stop a person from doing this. People profile, all the time, all around us, and we usually don't even notice it.

I am happy to see more people in this thread acknowledging the reality of systemic racism in this country.

[Kyyle23]

yeah I've asked that it be changed in the thread a couple of times out of embarrassment but it always gets buried.

 

Is it still wrong? How is it supposed to be spelled?

[lostfan]

Unfortunately, there is nothing that can stop a person from doing this. People profile, all the time, all around us, and we usually don't even notice it.

And THAT is why black people are so pissed about this. This doesn't translate well from tweets and Facebook posts. Mine was lamenting "how they see us" or something like that. Lost in translation long ago. It makes us feel like we are pariahs and a subclass of 3/5 of a person and the resistance to trying to make that point feels like a slap in the face.

 

 

yeah I've asked that it be changed in the thread a couple of times out of embarrassment but it always gets buried.

Another mod saw my post and did it I guess, lol

[StrangeSox]

Is it still wrong? How is it supposed to be spelled?

 

Now it's right and that wasn't meant as a shot at the mods/admins but I see how it could have been read that way. I was trying to say that I've asked a few times in the thread, but that those posts quickly get buried under dozens more and I never bothered to go as far as making the effort to actually ask someone to change it via PM/reporting the thread.

 

tl;dr it's right now, I no longer have to be embarrassed for my crappy spelling.

[Y2HH]

And THAT is why black people are so pissed about this. This doesn't translate well from tweets and Facebook posts. Mine was lamenting "how they see us" or something like that. Lost in translation long ago. It makes us feel like we are pariahs and a subclass of 3/5 of a person and the resistance to trying to make that point feels like a slap in the face.

 

This sort of profiling goes way deeper than most would even care to think about, to the point that people often profile against themselves, without even recognizing it.

[Jenksismyhero]

And THAT is why black people are so pissed about this. This doesn't translate well from tweets and Facebook posts. Mine was lamenting "how they see us" or something like that. Lost in translation long ago. It makes us feel like we are pariahs and a subclass of 3/5 of a person and the resistance to trying to make that point feels like a slap in the face.

 

 

 

Another mod saw my post and did it I guess, lol

 

Lostfan, honestly, if the script were reversed here - it's a predominately black neighborhood that's experiencing crime being committed by white teens - and you happen to see a white teen that you've never seen before, you're not thinking to yourself "wonder what he's up to?" Maybe you don't care enough to call the cops on him (but you might, especially if you've been a victim of a crime and watched as the cops did nothing for you and your neighbors), but I find it hard to believe you wouldn't at least think that to yourself.

 

I understand the problem that you're talking about, but I think in this situation it really isn't some overtly racist act of Zimmerman to wonder what Martin is doing given what was happening. It's not like he's living in a densely populated and diverse area and he's just assuming every black kid is up to no good.

[iamshack]

What's the mistake here? It's either self-defense or it's not. He didn't use the weapon improperly or irresponsibly, he felt compelled to use it and a jury agreed. If he had a knife on him and he stabbed Martin and killed him it would have been the same decision.

 

Nor do I believe that the gun played any role in Zimmerman's thinking about whether to tail Martin. I don't think he ever wanted to confront him. He stayed in his car for 20 minutes. That doesn't sound like someone who was itching for a fight.

The mistake is that the self defense laws, as far as I understand them, were never intended to benefit someone who was encouraging an altercation by threatening an innocent party. That is the huge distinction here that cannot be proven because the other party to this altercation is dead. Say Zimmerman had not killed Martin, but had only seriously wounded him, and he testified that Zimmerman initiated the altercation by repeatedly following him, eventually addressing him verbally and then brandishing his weapon. What is the outcome then?

 

To Lost's question earlier, you're damn right if this is a black guy carrying a weapon and following a white kid around and they come to blows and the black guy eventually shoots and kills the white kid, this is an entirely different animal.

[Soxbadger]

Lostfan, honestly, if the script were reversed here - it's a predominately black neighborhood that's experiencing crime being committed by white teens - and you happen to see a white teen that you've never seen before, you're not thinking to yourself "wonder what he's up to?" Maybe you don't care enough to call the cops on him (but you might, especially if you've been a victim of a crime and watched as the cops did nothing for you and your neighbors), but I find it hard to believe you wouldn't at least think that to yourself.

 

Unless they are committing an overtly criminal act, I wouldnt think anything regardless of whether they were white, black, etc.

 

I guess I dont assume that people who are walking on the street are criminals, regardless of the circumstantial connection that they may have to other unrelated crimes.

 

Call me old fashioned, but I dont consider walking on the street to be a suspicious activity.

[NorthSideSox72]

I really think if you drill down into the legal aspects here, the problem is in a conflict between laws. The manslaughter charge is intended to align with showing that a person's actions primarily and ultimately led to a death, even if that was not the originial intention (as it would be in murder). Given that basic, common criminal law principle, there isn't much question that what Zimmerman did should be manslaughter.

 

Then there is the stand-your-ground law, which gives special protection to people in confrontations beyond what was on the books (and, yes, beyond what is found in statutes in other states). The protection given here, specifically the law basically stating that you do not have to retreat to avoid conflict, means he was protected in his actions.

 

So really, to me, the problem is specifically the stand-your-ground law. A law which is not only unnecessary, but inherently dangerous. Hopefully it is modified or removed from the statutes at some point in the future.

 

All the rest of these topics, about race, definition of stalking, poor prosecution work, jury decision-making, jury instructions, whether or not people should be able to carry guns, etc., are red herrings here. They make for theater but don't get at the heart of the problem.

 

[Jenksismyhero]

The mistake is that the self defense laws, as far as I understand them, were never intended to benefit someone who was encouraging an altercation by threatening an innocent party. That is the huge distinction here that cannot be proven because the other party to this altercation is dead. Say Zimmerman had not killed Martin, but had only seriously wounded him, and he testified that Zimmerman initiated the altercation by repeatedly following him, eventually addressing him verbally and then brandishing his weapon. What is the outcome then?

 

To Lost's question earlier, you're damn right if this is a black guy carrying a weapon and following a white kid around and they come to blows and the black guy eventually shoots and kills the white kid, this is an entirely different animal.

 

Except we have plenty of circumstantial evidence to suggest Martin didn't feel threatened at all and that Zimmerman's actions while creepy probably wouldn't be considered threatening either. I feel like you keep ignoring that.

 

As far as your scenario, does Martin still attack Zimmerman?

[lostfan]

I really think if you drill down into the legal aspects here, the problem is in a conflict between laws. The manslaughter charge is intended to align with showing that a person's actions primarily and ultimately led to a death, even if that was not the originial intention (as it would be in murder). Given that basic, common criminal law principle, there isn't much question that what Zimmerman did should be manslaughter.

 

Then there is the stand-your-ground law, which gives special protection to people in confrontations beyond what was on the books (and, yes, beyond what is found in statutes in other states). The protection given here, specifically the law basically stating that you do not have to retreat to avoid conflict, means he was protected in his actions.

 

So really, to me, the problem is specifically the stand-your-ground law. A law which is not only unnecessary, but inherently dangerous. Hopefully it is modified or removed from the statutes at some point in the future.

 

All the rest of these topics, about race, definition of stalking, poor prosecution work, jury decision-making, jury instructions, whether or not people should be able to carry guns, etc., are red herrings here. They make for theater but don't get at the heart of the problem.

But the defense didn't use SYG.

[Jenksismyhero]

Unless they are committing an overtly criminal act, I wouldnt think anything regardless of whether they were white, black, etc.

 

I guess I dont assume that people who are walking on the street are criminals, regardless of the circumstantial connection that they may have to other unrelated crimes.

 

Call me old fashioned, but I dont consider walking on the street to be a suspicious activity.

 

Even in a gated residential area? That to me is the difference. There's a limited number of neighbors/strangers in that kind of place. You most likely have seen everyone before. This isn't living in Lincoln Park where you see a hundred thousand different people a day.

[iamshack]

Except we have plenty of circumstantial evidence to suggest Martin didn't feel threatened at all and that Zimmerman's actions while creepy probably wouldn't be considered threatening either. I feel like you keep ignoring that.

 

As far as your scenario, does Martin still attack Zimmerman?

What is that evidence? Because he was on the phone with his friend girl telling her he wasn't scurred? That's teenage male machismo.

 

Maybe I am ignoring it. Maybe I need to consider more that maybe he was just a stupid teenage who thought he was a hardass and engaged Zimmerman because he wanted to "show him" and smoke his ass. There certainly are plenty of teenagers these days like that.

[Jenksismyhero]

I really think if you drill down into the legal aspects here, the problem is in a conflict between laws. The manslaughter charge is intended to align with showing that a person's actions primarily and ultimately led to a death, even if that was not the originial intention (as it would be in murder). Given that basic, common criminal law principle, there isn't much question that what Zimmerman did should be manslaughter.

 

Then there is the stand-your-ground law, which gives special protection to people in confrontations beyond what was on the books (and, yes, beyond what is found in statutes in other states). The protection given here, specifically the law basically stating that you do not have to retreat to avoid conflict, means he was protected in his actions.

 

So really, to me, the problem is specifically the stand-your-ground law. A law which is not only unnecessary, but inherently dangerous. Hopefully it is modified or removed from the statutes at some point in the future.

 

All the rest of these topics, about race, definition of stalking, poor prosecution work, jury decision-making, jury instructions, whether or not people should be able to carry guns, etc., are red herrings here. They make for theater but don't get at the heart of the problem.

 

Yeah, this is manslaughter but for the self-defense aspect. By giving the not guilty verdict, the jury bought Zimmerman's story that he killed Martin out of self-defense (it's not like the jury found him not guilty on a lack of evidence for killing).

[NorthSideSox72]

But the defense didn't use SYG.

Not sure how that is relevant. They didn't need to. The defense used self-defense as the argument. They don't need to read the SYG statute, or any other statutes regarding self-defense, as that is already in front of them. SYG is part of the law regarding self-defense in Florida, part and parcel.

 

[lostfan]

Lostfan, honestly, if the script were reversed here - it's a predominately black neighborhood that's experiencing crime being committed by white teens - and you happen to see a white teen that you've never seen before, you're not thinking to yourself "wonder what he's up to?" Maybe you don't care enough to call the cops on him (but you might, especially if you've been a victim of a crime and watched as the cops did nothing for you and your neighbors), but I find it hard to believe you wouldn't at least think that to yourself.

 

I understand the problem that you're talking about, but I think in this situation it really isn't some overtly racist act of Zimmerman to wonder what Martin is doing given what was happening. It's not like he's living in a densely populated and diverse area and he's just assuming every black kid is up to no good.

I'd have to go further into white privilege (summary: basically these are issues white people never have to think about and basically take for granted, sometimes assuming it applies equally to blacks or other minorities the way it does them) and that's getting off topic. But honestly if i saw a white kid in a black neighborhood and they were doing something illegal I'd figure they were there to buy weed or something. When I was in high school we had a NHS induction ceremony and my dad came to watch it, and he was dressed in a suit and everything. We got dismissed early and as he's driving me home, he's on Honore turning back onto 63rd around the corner from where my school was and the guys on the corner were waving at him to come stop. He laughed like "of course, what else does a middle-aged white guy want in this neighborhood at 12:30 in the afternoon?"

[Jenksismyhero]

What is that evidence? Because he was on the phone with his friend girl telling her he wasn't scurred? That's teenage male machismo.

 

Maybe I am ignoring it. Maybe I need to consider more that maybe he was just a stupid teenage who thought he was a hardass and engaged Zimmerman because he wanted to "show him" and smoke his ass. There certainly are plenty of teenagers these days like that.

 

It could be male machismo, but I have to believe the reasonable person if they're scared will at least say something to the friend about being uncomfortable. She made it sound like he was more angry/annoyed. That, and you have the near 20 minutes of being followed and he doesn't really do anything other than try to lose the guy. He's not going to a house, he's not screaming for help, he's not calling the cops himself.

 

And on Zimmerman's side I still think it's important to remember he didn't really "chase" or run after Martin until he went in between or around a building and he lost him. He stayed in his car the majority of the time. That to me doesn't sound like someone who wants to start a fight. If he really wanted to confront Martin why wait? Just go up to him right away and ask him what he's up to.

[Y2HH]

Yeah, this is manslaughter but for the self-defense aspect. By giving the not guilty verdict, the jury bought Zimmerman's story that he killed Martin out of self-defense (it's not like the jury found him not guilty on a lack of evidence for killing).

 

...and this is where the issue of self-defense will come into play in a civil suit. I may be mistaken or misinterpreting the law as written in Florida, but I believe it grants complete immunity against civil cases in cases of self-defense. Being that Zimmerman was found to have killed Martin out of self-defense, wouldn't that grant him immunity to a civil case?

 

As the law is written:

 

776.032 Immunity from criminal prosecution and civil action for justifiable use of force.—

(1) A person who uses force as permitted in s. 776.012, s. 776.013, or s. 776.031 is justified in using such force and is immune from criminal prosecution and civil action for the use of such force, unless the person against whom force was used is a law enforcement office

 

776.012 Use of force in defense of person.—A person is justified in using force, except deadly force, against another when and to the extent that the person reasonably believes that such conduct is necessary to defend himself or herself or another against the other’s imminent use of unlawful force. However, a person is justified in the use of deadly force and does not have a duty to retreat if:

(1) He or she reasonably believes that such force is necessary to prevent imminent death or great bodily harm to himself or herself or another or to prevent the imminent commission of a forcible felony; or

(2) Under those circumstances permitted pursuant to s. 776.013.

 

776.013 Home protection; use of deadly force; presumption of fear of death or great bodily harm.

Edited July 15, 2013 by Y2HH

[cabiness42]

Being black and walking while otherwise minding your business is apparently a valid reason to call 911. Comforting to know that's the country that I live in and that's what people see when I'm not wearing a suit or playing with my son or doing something else inherently non-threatening.

 

Fitting the specific profile of people who have been committing crimes in a specific area is a valid reason to call the police. Calling the police about every black kid you see is not OK. Following him closely enough that he apparently thought he was in danger is also not OK.