Trayvon Martin

[StrangeSox]

Example.

 

 

 

Yeah I know that's goofy ass Ted Nugent but that's the most recent example I could think of off the top of my head and definitely not the first time I've seen that.

 

Also: when I hear prominent conservative types like Nugent, or Hannity, or Gingrich bring up Chicago as a counter-example (actually a non-sequitur) my first thought is "and what have YOU tried to do to help? Where've you been?" The answer to that is absolutely nothing whatsoever.

Richard Cohen had an openly racist editorial in the Washington Post today

 

http://www.washingtonpost.com/opinions/ric...ry.html?hpid=z2

[southsider2k5]

I wasn't even talking about teenagers. I'm talking grown people! My previous example was when I was 24 years old (she was the same age). That may seem like a child but it's far from it.

 

My sister in law is 33 and still needs her parents to smack her upside the head.

[StrangeSox]

I totally feel you lostfan. As a black man I always feel like I'm trying to prove myself to white people. It's not something I have intent to do but it's more inherent. Example: While riding the train, I see some idiot rapping out loud during rush hour. I feel compelled to tell him to STFU. I feel like his actions reflect poorly on me that I have to defend myself from him. It's all too weird of a feeling. I'm sure if a white person saw some other white person acting like an idiot, it probably wouldn't even phase them.

 

Another example is when I tell people my profession, they get big eyed, like it's impossible for a black man to possess an education. It's a shame really. From distancing ourselves from the idiots and still getting treated like *******, I grow weary of the s*** on a daily basis. White people will never understand that s***. I'm not trying to be racist but it's just true. I feel like most of them see things through rose colored glasses.

I've heard it described as "twice as good" before.

 

eta: this also relates to the 'credit to his race' and 'model minority' bulls*** too.

Edited July 16, 2013 by StrangeSox

[pettie4sox]

My sister in law is 33 and still needs her parents to smack her upside the head.

 

Heh. Well isn't she a product of her upbringing if she can't make competent decisions at that age?

 

I just think it's ridiculous that parents chime in on their kids and their adult relationships. You should be supportive, barring the person being a complete and blatant idiot.

[StrangeSox]

You left out key additional information that the person's identity was obscured with the sweatshirt and that recent crimes were committed in the area by young black men.

 

Ok, so a black man wearing a hoodie while walking down the street is reasonably suspicious and should have the police called on him.

[lostfan]

Richard Cohen had an openly racist editorial in the Washington Post today

 

http://www.washingtonpost.com/opinions/ric...ry.html?hpid=z2

Well in fairness after he said stop-and-frisk was justified he did actually acknowledge it violates young black men and said these kinds of problems for black people actually exist and aren't new which is more than I could say for most other articles like that.

[southsider2k5]

Heh. Well isn't she a product of her upbringing if she can't make competent decisions at that age?

 

I just think it's ridiculous that parents chime in on their kids and their adult relationships. You should be supportive, barring the person being a complete and blatant idiot.

 

Your opinion there will probably change as you have kids and they get older, I know mine has.

[EvilMonkey]

Well in fairness after he said stop-and-frisk was justified he did actually acknowledge it violates young black men and said these kinds of problems for black people actually exist and aren't new which is more than I could say for most other articles like that.

(He posted that because he is trying reeeeallly hard to not appear racist in any way)

[pettie4sox]

Your opinion there will probably change as you have kids and they get older, I know mine has.

 

IJS you can't coddle your kids forever. They have to take their lumps and learn.

[iamshack]

I didn't find the article to be racist. I am not sure that I agree with him, but I didn't find it racist.

 

SS, let me ask you this...as to the question of "some large disproportionate percentage of crimes are committed by black males" and therefore "we must profile black males" being racist, what if it was "some large disproportionate amount of crimes are committed by women" and therefore "we must profile women." Would you be as offended by that because of what you perceive to be gender bias or sexism as you are for what you perceive to be racism with the "black males" example?

[StrangeSox]

I didn't find the article to be racist. I am not sure that I agree with him, but I didn't find it racist.

 

SS, let me ask you this...as to the question of "some large disproportionate percentage of crimes are committed by black males" and therefore "we must profile black males" being racist, what if it was "some large disproportionate amount of crimes are committed by women" and therefore "we must profile women." Would you be as offended by that because of what you perceive to be gender bias or sexism as you are for what you perceive to be racism with the "black males" example?

 

I don't see why I wouldn't be. I've not been shy about criticizing gender bias and sexism in the past.

 

edit: Cohen has had racist columns going back decades

 

edit2: the explicitly racist parts are the stuff like "a uniform we all recognize." Young black male wearing a hoodie=thug/criminal uniform is pretty explicitly racist, or if that's too strong of a charge, a terrible racial stereotype that pervades our society and leads to all sorts of terrible outcomes.

Edited July 16, 2013 by StrangeSox

[Big Hurtin]

Watch Sean Hannity for like 90 seconds

 

see also: "the blacks are gonna riot" and associated comments

 

I plead the eighth.

[Soxbadger]

Well in fairness after he said stop-and-frisk was justified he did actually acknowledge it violates young black men and said these kinds of problems for black people actually exist and aren't new which is more than I could say for most other articles like that.

 

But the article is entirely faulty as many would argue that crime stats are inherently biased due to the fact that whether you are arrested/charged/convicted can be based on race/sex.

 

And when you look at the stats, youll notice the only race which is a suspect more than it is arrested is (outside of 1 "other felony sex crimes")...

 

Black people.

 

Oh society, how you create a system where the systematic racism is then used as a reason for why we should be more suspicious of that race.

 

Good show, good show.

[iamshack]

I don't see why I wouldn't be. I've not been shy about criticizing gender bias and sexism in the past.

 

edit: Cohen has had racist columns going back decades

Ok, I was just checking.

[iamshack]

But the article is entirely faulty as many would argue that crime stats are inherently biased due to the fact that whether you are arrested/charged/convicted can be based on race/sex.

 

And when you look at the stats, youll notice the only race which is a suspect more than it is arrested is (outside of 1 "other felony sex crimes")...

 

Black people.

 

Oh society, how you create a system where the systematic racism is then used as a reason for why we should be more suspicious of that race.

 

Good show, good show.

I really think in these instances this is more of an example of ignorance of crime and crime statistics than ignorance because he is racist. At least more often than not.

[iamshack]

I don't see why I wouldn't be. I've not been shy about criticizing gender bias and sexism in the past.

 

edit: Cohen has had racist columns going back decades

 

edit2: the explicitly racist parts are the stuff like "a uniform we all recognize." Young black male wearing a hoodie=thug/criminal uniform is pretty explicitly racist, or if that's too strong of a charge, a terrible racial stereotype that pervades our society and leads to all sorts of terrible outcomes.

One thing people have to remember, which Milk was trying to point out, is that it isn't racism to suspect young black males for wearing hoodies because they are black, but rather, because they happen to be wearing an article of clothing that is often chosen by criminals because of its ability to hide or conceal one's appearance.

 

Now I am sure that if you combine that with the fact that the person wearing the article of clothing is black, for many people that adds to the suspicion (rightfully unfair), but suspicion because of the article of clothing itself does not equate to racism.

Edited July 16, 2013 by iamshack

[Soxbadger]

I really think in these instances this is more of an example of ignorance of crime and crime statistics than ignorance because he is racist. At least more often than not.

 

Iamshack,

 

The article itself is may or may not be racist. But the article definitely does not address the issue of a system that has an inherent racial bias and why that bias impacts every single statistic related to that system.

 

Simply put, you can not logically conclude that any given black man is more likely to commit a crime than any given white man.

 

From the data you can conclude:

 

That the only group who almost always is accused more than arrested is black people.

 

If you then think about that rationally, it gets to the heart of the issue. When in doubt, its probably a black guy. That is the underlying inherent racism, and people can pretend it doesnt exist, but many of us know the truth.

 

Which is why an article like that is so dangerous. It basically says "its okay to think this way because of stats."

 

 

[StrangeSox]

One thing people have to remember, which Milk was trying to point out, is that it isn't racism to suspect young black males for wearing hoodies because they are black, but rather, because they happen to be wearing an article of clothing that is often chosen by criminals because of its ability to hide or conceal one's appearance.

 

Now I am sure that if you combine that with the fact that the person wearing the article of clothing is black, for many people that adds to the suspicion (rightfully unfair), but suspicion because of the article of clothing itself does not equate to racism.

 

But a white person wearing a hoodie isn't going to be viewed as suspicious. It's only when you add in race that it becomes a "uniform" worthy of suspicion. I don't even have to think twice about throwing on a hoodie if I'm going to go for a run, that I might be profiled and reported to the police, or, god forbid, chased down by an armed wanna-be cop. That's not the reality for a person of color. That is something they have to think about. There's a reason why there's such a thing as "the talk."

[StrangeSox]

If he matches the description of people who had been committing crimes in that area (all of these things, not just the fact that he might be black, as you keep focusing on), then it doesn't hurt to call. If there had been crimes committed by white youths in an area, especially if there aren't many whites in that area and that particular white kid isn't a recognizable face, it's reasonable to have suspicions and call the cops.

 

After this post, I'm going through and deleting all of the posts I made in this thread. You being intentionally obtuse is driving me nuts. Congratulations, you win.

 

I'm sorry, but you're still obscuring things here to justify broad racial profiling. The description for two of the crimes was "black man/men." That's it. This neighborhood was pretty mixed and about 25% black IIRC, so it isn't unusual for a black person to be there.

 

He was black and wearing a hoodie while walking down the sidewalk on the phone. That's enough, according to some, to raise suspicion and warrant questioning by the police. If you want to know why a lot of minority communities don't have a lot of trust in the police, it's because of stuff like this. These same calls and investigations and harassment just do not happen to white people the way they do to others.

Edited July 17, 2013 by StrangeSox

[cabiness42]

But a white person wearing a hoodie isn't going to be viewed as suspicious. It's only when you add in race that it becomes a "uniform" worthy of suspicion. I don't even have to think twice about throwing on a hoodie if I'm going to go for a run, that I might be profiled and reported to the police, or, god forbid, chased down by an armed wanna-be cop. That's not the reality for a person of color. That is something they have to think about. There's a reason why there's such a thing as "the talk."

 

Depending on the location and time of day, yes he might. Still, I don't think the problem is that Zimmerman singled this kid out as suspicious and called the police. The problem is that he left his vehicle to follow/pursue him, which is not a good something a civilian should be doing regardless of the suspicious person's race or attire.

[StrangeSox]

Depending on the location and time of day, yes he might.

 

We have pretty good evidence that this happens much, much, much more to non-whites than it does to whites.

[iamshack]

But a white person wearing a hoodie isn't going to be viewed as suspicious. It's only when you add in race that it becomes a "uniform" worthy of suspicion. I don't even have to think twice about throwing on a hoodie if I'm going to go for a run, that I might be profiled and reported to the police, or, god forbid, chased down by an armed wanna-be cop. That's not the reality for a person of color. That is something they have to think about. There's a reason why there's such a thing as "the talk."

So are you arguing that the "hoodie" is just another way for racists to be openly racist without having to take accountability for it?

 

If you go for a run in your hoodie, I don't think many people would find you suspicious. If however, you were loitering or lurking around with no apparent purpose for an extended period of time in your hoodie, I think I would be just as suspicious of you as I would a black person in the same circumstances.

 

You are probably correct in that there is some large component of white people that are using the hoodie or "uniform" as a way to continue being openly racist...but to assume that without any other evidence is unfair IMO, especially in the instance of the police. They are trained to identify suspicious people, and someone wearing clothing which partially conceals their identity is definitely suspicious behavior according to their training. Absent some other evidence of profiling or racism, I wouldn't leap to the conclusion that they are profiling.

[iamshack]

I'm sorry, but you're still obscuring things here to justify broad racial profiling. The description for two of the crimes was "black man/men." That's it. This neighborhood was pretty mixed and about 25% black IIRC, so it isn't unusual for a black person to be there.

 

He was black and wearing a hoodie while walking down the sidewalk on the phone. That's enough, according to a police officer, to raise suspicion and warrant questioning by the police. If you want to know why a lot of minority communities don't have a lot of trust in the police, it's because of stuff like this. These same calls and investigations and harassment just do not happen to white people the way they do to others.

But that is a function of the people calling in suspicious behavior, is it not? Are the police supposed to just guess which one of the callers is racist and which is not?

 

 

Edited July 16, 2013 by iamshack

[cabiness42]

You are probably correct in that there is some large component of white people that are using the hoodie or "uniform" as a way to continue being openly racist...but to assume that without any other evidence is unfair IMO, especially in the instance of the police. They are trained to identify suspicious people, and someone wearing clothing which partially conceals their identity is definitely suspicious behavior according to their training. Absent some other evidence of profiling or racism, I wouldn't leap to the conclusion that they are profiling.

 

Which is exactly why Zimmerman has the right to call the police, but not to pursue the kid. He clearly wasn't trained on how to deal with the situation once confronted. If he stays in his car, the police probably don't end up killing the kid. Yes, some people might get pissed off that a black kid got stopped and questioned when he wasn't doing anything wrong, but at least the larger tragedy is avoided.

 

[StrangeSox]

So are you arguing that the "hoodie" is just another way for racists to be openly racist without having to take accountability for it?

 

If you go for a run in your hoodie, I don't think many people would find you suspicious. If however, you were loitering or lurking around with no apparent purpose for an extended period of time in your hoodie, I think I would be just as suspicious of you as I would a black person in the same circumstances.

 

You are probably correct in that there is some large component of white people that are using the hoodie or "uniform" as a way to continue being openly racist...but to assume that without any other evidence is unfair IMO, especially in the instance of the police. They are trained to identify suspicious people, and someone wearing clothing which partially conceals their identity is definitely suspicious behavior according to their training. Absent some other evidence of profiling or racism, I wouldn't leap to the conclusion that they are profiling.

 

I'm not even saying they're dog-whistling their racism here. I'm saying they are explicitly saying that a young black male in a hoodie is in a "uniform." That "uniform" is supposedly the uniform of a criminal thug. This editorial said it, Geraldo said it, plenty of people have said it. Young black men in "uniform" should be viewed suspiciously because they're young black men wearing a hoodie.

 

But when does this sort of talk apply to white people? How many white people out for a run or a walk get the police called on them because they're suspicious? How much talk has focused on, say, the local high school track team's thug uniform? Hoodies are everywhere, worn by people of all races and ages and genders, but it's a "uniform" only for black men.

 

I wouldn't point to police training as racially neutral, either. Our justice system has a pretty terrible track record.