Trayvon Martin

[iamshack]

I'm going to say it again, but it's only "associated with criminal behavior" for non-whites. Pragmatically, is this something non-whites have to consider? Unfortunately, yes. That doesn't mean we should accept it as an unchangeable fact of nature, though. It's like blaming a girl who was wearing a skirt for getting raped. No, f*** that, blame the rapist and blame the people clinging to racial stereotypes that view black men as criminals.

That's simply not true. There are plenty of white teenagers that arouse my spidey senses because of the way they act and dress.

 

It's part of our biological makeup, SS, it's not always racism.

[Y2HH]

This was cross-posted with my response to shack, but the same thing applies. Pragmatically, it is something some people have to consider because of racist stereotypes. But that doesn't mean that we as a society need to accept and perpetuate these stereotypes.

 

No, we don't, but until the idiots and dregs of society get over it and stop doing exactly that, the easiest way to combat their stupidity it is to just NOT dress that way.

[Jake]

I've always found there to be an interesting balance when thinking about "proper" race relations. While it would be out of line to deal with black friends or whomever else in a particular way because they are black, there is an extent to which it is inappropriate to act colorblind. There are parts of the human experience in the world today that are fundamentally different for (for instance) black people and I can't just treat my black friends like they are seeing and experiencing the world the same way I am.

 

I remember when I was younger, saying the word "black" around a teammate and then I started acting embarrassed like I had just dropped an n-bomb. He just goes, "you know, it's no secret that I'm black. I have mirrors at my house. We don't have to pretend." This is when I first realized that I was being a pretty useless "non-racist" as I was trying to do my best "non-racist" impression around my black friends and, in effect, treating them with kid gloves because they were black. That doesn't mean I should instead pretend that I know what it's like to be black, but I also can't pretend that being black isn't an important part of someone's identity, for better or for worse.

 

This is a fairly recent tension in critical theory, a sort of sub-specialty of mine in academia. There was a huge movement to try to abolish all labels, so to speak. All very well-intended, of course, but some prominent black and feminist scholars noticed something--all the people behind this movement were old white guys (a result of the old segregated hiring schemes in tandem with tenure). Black and feminist scholars, in particular, were thinking "hey, it's easy to renounce all sense of identity when you haven't had other people defining it for you for your entire existence." So, we have this tension between a desire for colorblindness when we simply don't live in a colorblind world. And the core assumption behind colorblindness seems to be that this just lets other people be assimilated in the club of white males rather than an acceptance of cultural variety and history.

[Y2HH]

I'd rather we change society to eliminate this type of bulls***, though.

 

I think we agree, but there are certain things you have to just "give up on" until we evolve as a society much more than we have. Why don't you try sporting a toothbrush mustache for a few days in public and see how society reacts? Is it fair? Nope. Does that matter? Not at all, as I guarantee you'll get laughed at by some, and profiled and dubbed a racist by others.

[StrangeSox]

That's simply not true. There are plenty of white teenagers that arouse my spidey senses because of the way they act and dress.

 

It's part of our biological makeup, SS, it's not always racism.

 

Suspicion based on dress is 100% cultural. Nothing biologically tells you to be fearful of a hooded sweatshirt. It's only a uniform if you're black.

 

I'd also like to point out that suspicious actions keep getting brought up, but that's not relevant to this topic. Trayvon Martin was walking home from the store, talking on the phone and wearing a hoodie. He wasn't doing any suspicious. Suspicion based on actions are much more legitimate, though those can be influenced by stereotypes as well. Just this last weekend I called 911 on a white teen in front of my house, but it was because he was caving in the door of his girlfriend's car, not because of the way he was dressed and that I didn't recognize him.

[StrangeSox]

I think we agree, but there are certain things you have to just "give up on" until we evolve as a society much more than we have. Why don't you try sporting a toothbrush mustache for a few days in public and see how society reacts? Is it fair? Nope. Does that matter? Not at all, as I guarantee you'll get laughed at by some, and profiled and dubbed a racist by others.

Ok but systemic racism isn't something I'm willing to give up on.

[Jenksismyhero]

Poor white people and hispanics are also unfairly stereotyped.

 

Interesting that it's "stereotyped" instead of being victims of racism.

 

 

I feel you incessant need to pretend that racism isn't a very real thing perpetuates racism. Half of society tunes out discussions of racism because they're white.

 

I don't pretend it doesn't exist. I know it does. I've seen it and heard it in cases i've worked where people still believe other races are subhuman and beneath them. THAT is racism. I don't buy your version where if you think of one race differently from your own you're automatically a racist. Really you're just complaining about prejudices and stereotypes that EVERYONE has about other races and other types of people who are not themselves.

[iamshack]

Suspicion based on dress is 100% cultural. Nothing biologically tells you to be fearful of a hooded sweatshirt. It's only a uniform if you're black.

 

I'd also like to point out that suspicious actions keep getting brought up, but that's not relevant to this topic. Trayvon Martin was walking home from the store, talking on the phone and wearing a hoodie. He wasn't doing any suspicious. Suspicion based on actions are much more legitimate, though those can be influenced by stereotypes as well. Just this last weekend I called 911 on a white teen in front of my house, but it was because he was caving in the door of his girlfriend's car, not because of the way he was dressed and that I didn't recognize him.

I understand that. But you know what is biological, smarty pants? Making decisions based on past experiences. It's called learning.

 

If I see someone wearing concealing clothing (because they actually wanted to conceal their identity and not make a fashion statement) committing a crime, it arouses my suspicions a bit when I see someone wearing this "uniform."

 

We evolved in this manner because those are the folks that managed to live, while the idiots who didn't learn, died.

 

As for your point about Martin, he was wearing his hood up over his head, was he not? The act of wearing his hood up and walking around with no apparent purpose other than to talk on his phone was enough to arouse the suspicions of Zimmerman. Now anyone who has been reading this thread knows darn well where I stand on this, but just as we have gone back and forth on "this would have never happened had Zimmerman not approached Martin," I wonder if the same can be said about Martin. Would any of this have happened had Martin not been wearing his hood up and walking back and forth with no apparent purpose?

 

Before you respond by saying "there is nothing wrong with a kid eating skittles and wearing a hoodie" (choosing your words deliberately to focus on things generally associated with children), I'll just say that no, in an ideal world, there is nothing wrong with wearing a hooded sweatshirt with the hood over your head. Unfortunately, we do not live in an ideal world, and I remember my mother telling me as a kid not to go running around the neighborhood wearing all black at night because it would appear that I was up to no good. So I didn't.

Edited July 16, 2013 by iamshack

[Jenksismyhero]

See, in one post you tell me that I 'scream racism!' too much and in the very next post you try to justify racial stereotyping black men in hoodies.

 

Hey, if you keep calling it racial stereotyping and not racism, you and I can be in agreement.

[StrangeSox]

Interesting that it's "stereotyped" instead of being victims of racism.

 

Poor white people are stereotyped by class/wealth. Dumb hillbillies, trailer trash, rednecks, etc. The Hispanic example you mentioned would be race-based.

 

I don't pretend it doesn't exist. I know it does. I've seen it and heard it in cases i've worked where people still believe other races are subhuman and beneath them. THAT is racism. I don't buy your version where if you think of one race differently from your own you're automatically a racist. Really you're just complaining about prejudices and stereotypes that EVERYONE has about other races and other types of people who are not themselves.

 

Right, your view of racism is limited to open white supremicism. That, thankfully, has largely been stamped out from society, or at least open society. But there is still widespread systemic racism, and pretending that it doesn't exist, that people don't suffer from it (and others benefit) only helps to perpetuate the system. Yes, it is about racial prejudices and racial stereotypes. A racial prejudice is racism. A racial stereotype is racism.

 

And I've said strongly that everybody has prejudices and biases, many of them ingrained and not even conscious. I've posted studies and articles on this. But in our society, in 21st century America, these prejudices and stereotypes still build barriers for primarily non-white people. That's what systemic racism is, it's the aggregate of individual, even unintentional racism into a very real force.

[StrangeSox]

Hey, if you keep calling it racial stereotyping and not racism, you and I can be in agreement.

Race-based stereotypes and prejudices are racist.

[Jake]

I can't help but think of all the times that I went outside of my parents' house to talk on the phone so as to get privacy. I would always walk around aimlessly because I'm a fidgety person. I wonder how suspicious I looked.

Edited July 16, 2013 by Jake

[Y2HH]

I can't help but think of all the times that I went outside of my parents' house to talk on the phone so as to get privacy. I would always walk around aimlessly because I'm a fidgety person. I wonder how suspicious I looked.

 

Probably depends on a lot of factors.

[iamshack]

I can't help but think of all the times that I went outside of my parents' house to talk on the phone so as to get privacy. I would always walk around aimlessly because I'm a fidgety person. I wonder how suspicious I looked.

It's one thing to walk around your parents' house (where you presumably lived and were known to have) and to walk around a house where you weren't known particularly well. And with semi-concealing clothing.

 

By no means am I saying it is right that people would automatically jump to the conclusion that such a person is one to be suspicious of, but I've learned that any time I can do something (within reason) to take more control of the situation, rather than assume someone I don't know is going to act in a reasonable manner, I do.

Edited July 16, 2013 by iamshack

[Jenksismyhero]

Race-based stereotypes and prejudices are racist.

 

So again, using that definition everyone is racist, every opinion about race is racist, and now racism has no meaning. That is absurd.

[StrangeSox]

I understand that. But you know what is biological, smarty pants? Making decisions based on past experiences. It's called learning.

 

If I see someone wearing concealing clothing (because they actually wanted to conceal their identity and not make a fashion statement) committing a crime, it arouses my suspicions a bit when I see someone wearing this "uniform."

 

We evolved in this manner because those are the folks that managed to live, while the idiots who didn't learn, died.

 

We've evolved all sorts of faulty mental processes that lead to illogical conclusions and judgements. We're great at recognizing imagined patterns that aren't actually there. That doesn't mean we should accept our cognitive biases instead of working to become aware of them and correct them.

 

As for your point about Martin, he was wearing his hood up over his head, was he not? The act of wearing his hood up and walking around with no apparent purpose other than to talk on his phone was enough to arouse the suspicions of Zimmerman. Now anyone who has been reading this thread knows darn well where I stand on this, but just as we have gone back and forth on "this would have never happened had Zimmerman not approached Martin," I wonder if the same can be said about Martin. Would any of this have happened had Martin not been wearing his hood up and walking back and forth with no apparent purpose?

 

Martin was walking back from the store, not wandering aimlessly. Going for a stroll around a neighborhood should also not be viewed as suspicious. There was a light rain, which is why he had his hood up.

 

It's not like we have to reach for a case where this line of reasoning that says it was suspicious was 100% stupid, wrong and tragic.

 

Before you respond by saying "there is nothing wrong with a kid eating skittles and wearing a hoodie" (choosing your words deliberately to focus on things generally associated with children), I'll just say that no, in an ideal world, there is nothing wrong with wearing a hooded sweatshirt with the hood over your head. Unfortunately, we do not live in an ideal world, and I remember my mother telling me as a kid not to go running around the neighborhood wearing all black at night because it would appear that I was up to no good. So I didn't.

 

there is nothing wrong with an adult eating skittles and wearing hoodies. Hoodies aren't generally associated with children AFAIK.

 

We don't live in an ideal world, but that doesn't mean we need to just accept the flaws that there are. It's easy for a bunch of white guys to say "oh well, maybe black people just shouldn't wear hoodies" since it doesn't effect them.

 

 

[StrangeSox]

So again, using that definition everyone is racist, every opinion about race is racist, and now racism has no meaning. That is absurd.

Everyone has racist prejudices and biases. That doesn't mean racism has no meaning or that every opinion about race is racist. That doesn't follow at all.

[iamshack]

We've evolved all sorts of faulty mental processes that lead to illogical conclusions and judgements. We're great at recognizing imagined patterns that aren't actually there. That doesn't mean we should accept our cognitive biases instead of working to become aware of them and correct them.

 

 

 

Martin was walking back from the store, not wandering aimlessly. Going for a stroll around a neighborhood should also not be viewed as suspicious. There was a light rain, which is why he had his hood up.

 

It's not like we have to reach for a case where this line of reasoning that says it was suspicious was 100% stupid, wrong and tragic.

 

 

 

there is nothing wrong with an adult eating skittles and wearing hoodies. Hoodies aren't generally associated with children AFAIK.

 

We don't live in an ideal world, but that doesn't mean we need to just accept the flaws that there are. It's easy for a bunch of white guys to say "oh well, maybe black people just shouldn't wear hoodies" since it doesn't effect them.

The argument I am making is that "faulty mental processes" and "cognitive biases" do not equate to racism.

 

And no, we don't have to accept the flaws. I couldn't agree more. But we don't have to chance our own life or safety either based on the assumption that the other 6 billion idiots inheriting this planet are going to behave as we would.

 

Cheers....I always enjoy debating with you.

[Brian]

I never understood why parents got involved with their children's relationships. That just seems so wrong to me.

 

My buddy had an arranged marriage a few years ago when he was 25. He's Indian. I was shocked they still do that. Shows how out of touch I am.

[Jenksismyhero]

Everyone has racist prejudices and biases. That doesn't mean racism has no meaning or that every opinion about race is racist. That doesn't follow at all.

 

Racist and racism are emotionally charged words with historical context. If all stereotyping based on race is racist, then just call it stereotyping. Why add the negative (and quite damning) connotation?

[EvilMonkey]

I think we agree, but there are certain things you have to just "give up on" until we evolve as a society much more than we have. Why don't you try sporting a toothbrush mustache for a few days in public and see how society reacts? Is it fair? Nope. Does that matter? Not at all, as I guarantee you'll get laughed at by some, and profiled and dubbed a racist by others.

In high school I had long hair, tinted glasses and used to wear an Army jacket. I would get stopped by our school security at least twice a week and frisked for drugs, based on how I looked. By junior year I was wearing different clothes and no Army jacket, stopped getting searched. It happens.

[cabiness42]

Suspicion based on dress is 100% cultural. Nothing biologically tells you to be fearful of a hooded sweatshirt. It's only a uniform if you're black.

 

I'd also like to point out that suspicious actions keep getting brought up, but that's not relevant to this topic. Trayvon Martin was walking home from the store, talking on the phone and wearing a hoodie. He wasn't doing any suspicious. Suspicion based on actions are much more legitimate, though those can be influenced by stereotypes as well. Just this last weekend I called 911 on a white teen in front of my house, but it was because he was caving in the door of his girlfriend's car, not because of the way he was dressed and that I didn't recognize him.

 

Not to say that Zimmerman couldn't have been lying or exaggerating, but on his call to police he described behavior beyond simply being black, dressed in a hoodie, and walking. Something to the effect of stopping and staring at some of the houses.

 

[lostfan]

I've always found there to be an interesting balance when thinking about "proper" race relations. While it would be out of line to deal with black friends or whomever else in a particular way because they are black, there is an extent to which it is inappropriate to act colorblind. There are parts of the human experience in the world today that are fundamentally different for (for instance) black people and I can't just treat my black friends like they are seeing and experiencing the world the same way I am.

 

I remember when I was younger, saying the word "black" around a teammate and then I started acting embarrassed like I had just dropped an n-bomb. He just goes, "you know, it's no secret that I'm black. I have mirrors at my house. We don't have to pretend." This is when I first realized that I was being a pretty useless "non-racist" as I was trying to do my best "non-racist" impression around my black friends and, in effect, treating them with kid gloves because they were black. That doesn't mean I should instead pretend that I know what it's like to be black, but I also can't pretend that being black isn't an important part of someone's identity, for better or for worse.

This is a fairly recent tension in critical theory, a sort of sub-specialty of mine in academia. There was a huge movement to try to abolish all labels, so to speak. All very well-intended, of course, but some prominent black and feminist scholars noticed something--all the people behind this movement were old white guys (a result of the old segregated hiring schemes in tandem with tenure). Black and feminist scholars, in particular, were thinking "hey, it's easy to renounce all sense of identity when you haven't had other people defining it for you for your entire existence." So, we have this tension between a desire for colorblindness when we simply don't live in a colorblind world. And the core assumption behind colorblindness seems to be that this just lets other people be assimilated in the club of white males rather than an acceptance of cultural variety and history.

I personally find this hilarious. My boss did this once when he was telling a story about one of his employees earlier in his career, he said something along the lines of "and he was b-... he was an African-American gentleman..." I started laughing out loud, I was like "he's black, it's ok to say that, I'm black too."

 

So again, using that definition everyone is racist, every opinion about race is racist, and now racism has no meaning. That is absurd.

Well I mean, you don't have to wear a white hood screaming the n-word with a noose in your hand while setting a cross on fire in a black family's front yard to actually be considered racist. Most of the time in 2013 people like to hide behind a layer of plausible deniability anyway, something about the Martin case in particular has a lot of people dropping that and being overtly racist (not that I'm saying that's happening in this thread, or that you're doing it, besides one or two people and they know who they are).

[lostfan]

In high school I had long hair, tinted glasses and used to wear an Army jacket. I would get stopped by our school security at least twice a week and frisked for drugs, based on how I looked. By junior year I was wearing different clothes and no Army jacket, stopped getting searched. It happens.

My brother thought the leather trenchcoats were the coolest thing ever after he saw the Matrix so he spent $300 on one only for the security guards at his high school to tell him he couldn't wear it, because Columbine was so recent at the time. lol, dumbass

[NorthSideSox72]

My brother thought the leather trenchcoats were the coolest thing ever after he saw the Matrix so he spent $300 on one only for the security guards at his high school to tell him he couldn't wear it, because Columbine was so recent at the time. lol, dumbass

Your bother had $300 to spend on an item of clothing in high school? Holy crap. I probably spent that on my entire wardrobe for high school.