Trayvon Martin

[lostfan]

The radical left-winger in me says "doing something" about crime is about more than just having more cops.

[StrangeSox]

The radical left-winger in me says "doing something" about crime is about more than just having more cops.

Right, I'd imagine that TNC would say that a major source of crime and violence is poverty. So, before he can criticize policies like stop-and-frisk, he needs to figure out how to solve American poverty and the crime it induces?

[iamshack]

Ok, now you're conflating "the far left" (radical communists, anarchists, etc.) with "the left" with the Democratic Party.

 

"So what's your solution?!" is just a weak defense of the status quo. It's not an actual argument and I'll note that you didn't address the part where I suggest that we simply end racist policies. We don't need any alternative to stop with garbage like "stop-and-frisk" and demanding a comprehensive solution to crime and poverty before we can talk about the failures of the current system only serves to justify those same failures.

I don't know the solution. And I don't pretend to be an expert on the subject. And this is precisely the reason why people in law enforcement become frustrated with folks accusing them of being a bunch of racist pigs...yes, it is rather easy to point out the flaws while you're sitting back in your recliner pontificating about your Utopian police force...but until you actually are out there in the middle of it, it's very difficult to understand what law enforcement is dealing with.

 

I'm not saying that I have all the answers, but until I have some kind of idea of what it actually is to try and keep the streets safe every day, especially in a major metropolitan area, I don't feel it is particularly genuine of me to merely sit by and fling insults at the very people who are providing for much of my safety.

 

Maybe TNC should get his ass out on the streets with the cops every weekend for 6 months and then write this column.

[StrangeSox]

lol, ok

 

you're still failing to address the main point, which is that you don't need a solution to point out when something is rotten.

 

edit: I'll just go back to this cartoon. I don't need to know how to fix your broken hand nor do I need to smash my own hand with the hammer before I can give criticism/advice about stopping smashing your hand with a hammer.

 

 

Stuff like "stop-and-frisk" is akin to smashing your hand with a hammer. Things improve immediately as soon as you stop smashing your damn hand with a hammer. No need to worry about alternative instruments to smash your hand with or what you could do to fix the damage you've already done. Just stop doing it.

Edited July 22, 2013 by StrangeSox

[iamshack]

lol, ok

 

you're still failing to address the main point, which is that you don't need a solution to point out when something is rotten.

I did address the main point...several times, in fact.

 

The fact that some commentators are pointing out inequalities and discrimination and outright racism is all fine and good. Yes, they are entitled to their opinions. And yes, many times they make some good points. But at some point we need to see more political will and less pontificating out of the Democratic party than has been shown in the last decade or so.

 

[iamshack]

lol, ok

 

you're still failing to address the main point, which is that you don't need a solution to point out when something is rotten.

 

edit: I'll just go back to this cartoon. I don't need to know how to fix your broken hand nor do I need to smash my own hand with the hammer before I can give criticism/advice about stopping smashing your hand with a hammer.

 

 

Stuff like "stop-and-frisk" is akin to smashing your hand with a hammer. Things improve immediately as soon as you stop smashing your damn hand with a hammer. No need to worry about alternative instruments to smash your hand with or what you could do to fix the damage you've already done. Just stop doing it.

It's not that simple and that is the problem with this cartoon.

 

Why is he smashing his hand in the first place? What is the issue at hand which needs to be addressed which is causing him to smash his hand in the first place?

[StrangeSox]

It's not that simple and that is the problem with this cartoon.

 

Why is he smashing his hand in the first place? What is the issue at hand which needs to be addressed which is causing him to smash his hand in the first place?

Who cares? Demanding an alternative to a stupid idea that is immediately rectified by stopping said stupid idea is equivalent to defending the stupid idea in the first place. If something is bad and dumb, stop doing it. You don't need to magical alternative to stop doing bad, dumb things. S-A-F is a bad, dumb thing. TNC doesn't need to solve poverty and crime or be a police officer for six months in order to offer valid criticisms of the program.

[StrangeSox]

I did address the main point...several times, in fact.

 

The fact that some commentators are pointing out inequalities and discrimination and outright racism is all fine and good. Yes, they are entitled to their opinions. And yes, many times they make some good points. But at some point we need to see more political will and less pontificating out of the Democratic party than has been shown in the last decade or so.

 

Who cares about the DNC? Ta-Nehisi isn't the DNC. Saying that the DNC is weak-willed and allows itself to be rolled by a reactionary Republican party has f*** all to do with anything TNC is writing. Why is TNC accountable for the lack of political will in the DNC?

[iamshack]

Who cares? Demanding an alternative to a stupid idea that is immediately rectified by stopping said stupid idea is equivalent to defending the stupid idea in the first place. If something is bad and dumb, stop doing it. You don't need to magical alternative to stop doing bad, dumb things. S-A-F is a bad, dumb thing. TNC doesn't need to solve poverty and crime or be a police officer for six months in order to offer valid criticisms of the program.

This is oversimplification and probably the main reason why the Dems often have the better ideas, but the inability to place them into reality.

 

 

[StrangeSox]

This is oversimplification and probably the main reason why the Dems often have the better ideas, but the inability to place them into reality.

 

"Stop stupid policies like S-A-F" is a better idea than "keep doing stupid policies like S-A-F." "Dems" put S-A-F into place (TNC criticizes Obama for hinting at nominating the man responsible to replace Napalitano in the very same article you said he shouldn't write before he pretends to be a cop for six months). TNC is not the DNC.

 

This is just straight-up concern trolling that results in acceptance of the status quo.

[iamshack]

Who cares about the DNC? Ta-Nehisi isn't the DNC. Saying that the DNC is weak-willed and allows itself to be rolled by a reactionary Republican party has f*** all to do with anything TNC is writing. Why is TNC accountable for the lack of political will in the DNC?

He isn't, and I don't even know who TNC is. I confess. I was writing a general reaction to the typical liberal position on issues like this. All fluff and ideology, but no realistic alternatives.

 

It's tiresome, at least IMHO, that's all.

 

And yes, when something is just obviously wrong and inequitable, we should condemn it as such. But as we age and grow in experience, many times we realize that things were never as simple as we once thought. That we aren't as smart as we thought we were all along. That there actually were some pretty intelligent people that came before us, and faced some incredibly complex problems, and no, they were not always able to put together the perfect solution, but they dealt with things the best they could. Obviously we should always strive for improvement in all things, but to equate some of these incredibly complex problems to smashing one's own hand for no reason is f***ing stupid.

 

 

[farmteam]

Who cares about the DNC? Ta-Nehisi isn't the DNC. Saying that the DNC is weak-willed and allows itself to be rolled by a reactionary Republican party has f*** all to do with anything TNC is writing. Why is TNC accountable for the lack of political will in the DNC?

I thought shack was just saying that you can't look at things of this nature in a vacuum, and the political will to actually effect changes is a natural part of any practical discussion...

[StrangeSox]

He isn't, and I don't even know who TNC is. I confess. I was writing a general reaction to the typical liberal position on issues like this. All fluff and ideology, but no realistic alternatives.

 

This is where we hit the concern trolling BS. The realistic alternative is "stop S-A-F." That's it. That's as far as we need to go. We don't need an alternative before we stop smashing our own hands.

[StrangeSox]

I thought shack was just saying that you can't look at things of this nature in a vacuum, and the political will to actually effect changes is a natural part of any practical discussion...

 

"political will" is sort of a irrelevant here. It was a policy enacted in NYC by NYC. It has nothing to do with Washington Democrats. NYPD can end this terrible policy at any time.

[lostfan]

This is oversimplification and probably the main reason why the Dems often have the better ideas, but the inability to place them into reality.

So what you do is elect people at various levels who will put this agenda into a law, and for the Dems in 2006 this worked fine, in 2008 it worked even better, until the Great Sad of 2010 when they got pissy, blamed themselves as left-leaning voters tend to do, and let the Epic Conservative Freakout take control of everything, everywhere.

 

That's the "do" part you're talking about. In the meantime, since we can't, because the average member of the House doesn't know which hole to s*** from, we talk about what we want our choice of leaders to address come the next election (for NYC, that time is not now since Bloomberg is still in office and weaseled his way into another term in the past election)

[iamshack]

"Stop stupid policies like S-A-F" is a better idea than "keep doing stupid policies like S-A-F." "Dems" put S-A-F into place (TNC criticizes Obama for hinting at nominating the man responsible to replace Napalitano in the very same article you said he shouldn't write before he pretends to be a cop for six months). TNC is not the DNC.

 

This is just straight-up concern trolling that results in acceptance of the status quo.

So now I am trolling? Gotcha.

 

I guess you can't be invited to the table unless you've read the Atlantic Monthly for the last 5 years of your life from the comfort of your living room.

 

Take your intellectual elitism and shove it right up your ass. It does nothing but obfuscate the issue at hand with needless details. You know damn well I understand the issue enough to debate whether racial profiling is worth the inequality to those it targets or whether we should eschew the gains in crime-fighting effectiveness.

[StrangeSox]

Stop-and-frisk is a creation of the NYPD. Talking about "political will" and Democrats and liberals is a bunch of irrelevant nonsense.

[farmteam]

"political will" is sort of a irrelevant here. It was a policy enacted in NYC by NYC. It has nothing to do with Washington Democrats. NYPD can end this terrible policy at any time.

I thought we were talking on a broader scale, not just NYPD. It's not like Terry stops are only found in NYC.

[lostfan]

"political will" is sort of a irrelevant here. It was a policy enacted in NYC by NYC. It has nothing to do with Washington Democrats. NYPD can end this terrible policy at any time.

And really, yeah, in THIS PARTICULAR INSTANCE it's as simple as that. If you're a mayoral candidate you probably make this part of your platform.

[iamshack]

"political will" is sort of a irrelevant here. It was a policy enacted in NYC by NYC. It has nothing to do with Washington Democrats. NYPD can end this terrible policy at any time.

As I said earlier, I am reacting more generally to the typical liberal approach to this sort of issue. It applies here and your attempts to avoid the conversation through the use of pointless specifics regarding this particular article don't add anything to the discussion I am trying to have.

 

If you don't wish to have it, don't reply to my posts.

[StrangeSox]

So now I am trolling? Gotcha.

 

concern-trolling is not lolz-trolling, it's exactly what you're doing in these last few posts. ""concern trolling" as "offering a poisoned apple in the form of advice to political opponents that, if taken, would harm the recipient""

[farmteam]

Stop-and-frisk is a creation of the NYPD. Talking about "political will" and Democrats and liberals is a bunch of irrelevant nonsense.

The specifically known "stop and frisk" program is NYPD, but Terry stops happen everywhere. And a police officer can search for weapons (if there's a reasonable articulable susupicion) after initiating a Terry stop, in which case it pretty much is a stop and frisk.

[iamshack]

concern-trolling is not lolz-trolling, it's exactly what you're doing in these last few posts. ""concern trolling" as "offering a poisoned apple in the form of advice to political opponents that, if taken, would harm the recipient""

Honestly, I can't keep up with your internet lingo.

[StrangeSox]

As I said earlier, I am reacting more generally to the typical liberal approach to this sort of issue. It applies here and your attempts to avoid the conversation through the use of pointless specifics regarding this particular article don't add anything to the discussion I am trying to have.

 

If you don't wish to have it, don't reply to my posts.

 

No, you talk specifically about stop-and-frisk and TNC's article for multiple posts, even going as far as saying he shouldn't write his article until he pretends to be a cop for a few months. You made an irrelevant general whine about "where are the solutions?!!" in response to a specific article; don't try to pretend I'm the one trying to change the topic.

 

It's not "pointless specifics" to point out that your response to the article I posted are 1) wrong factually (liberals and the left offer plenty of solutions) 2) wrong logically (you don't need alternatives to offer criticisms of the status quo) and 3) irrelevant (your criticisms about political will and democrats have exactly zero relevance to the NYPD's stop-and-frisk policy). If you want to have a discussion about something completely irrelevant to the article I posted, have at it, but don't try to pretend that you weren't directly criticizing the article and the topic it addressed.

 

That is all fine and good...all that fancy language to describe how wrong Cohen is...tell me how to approach crime in an alternative manner! This is my issue with the far left...always pointing out the inadequacies but rarely coming up with realistic solutions...it's not enough to always point out how wrong the rest of us are if you never provide a realistic alternative...

 

But Cohen says this...he points out that there have to be other factors involved...and don't get me wrong, I don't really agree with Cohen and I said as much last week...but the article SS posted today, and many articles that these intellectuals on the left write, are fantastic at pointing out inadequacies, but not so much at bringing real, workable alternative solutions to the table. Yes, we'd love to approach crime in a manner which never suspects or inconveniences or violates anyone simply because of what others that might share something in common with them have done, or because some folks are just downright racist...but we still have to keep our streets safe, do we not? Ok, how should we do it better?

 

I don't know the solution. And I don't pretend to be an expert on the subject. And this is precisely the reason why people in law enforcement become frustrated with folks accusing them of being a bunch of racist pigs...yes, it is rather easy to point out the flaws while you're sitting back in your recliner pontificating about your Utopian police force...but until you actually are out there in the middle of it, it's very difficult to understand what law enforcement is dealing with.

 

I'm not saying that I have all the answers, but until I have some kind of idea of what it actually is to try and keep the streets safe every day, especially in a major metropolitan area, I don't feel it is particularly genuine of me to merely sit by and fling insults at the very people who are providing for much of my safety.

 

Maybe TNC should get his ass out on the streets with the cops every weekend for 6 months and then write this column.

 

 

[lostfan]

Honestly, I can't keep up with your internet lingo.

Not trying to put myself into this particular argument, but "concern trolling" has a specific meaning to it and intent behind it.

 

When Rush Limbaugh brings up Chicago's crime rate on his show, he has no intention whatsoever of actually suggesting anything to help, he only brings it up as a means to stifle a topic of debate he doesn't like.

 

Another example (one that I do sometimes) is a liberal talking about how Republicans shouldn't elect someone like Sanford because it undermines their "family values" platform (when in reality, they don't give a s*** and actually get off on that kind of flagrant hypocrisy).