Trayvon Martin

[StrangeSox]

Take your intellectual elitism and shove it right up your ass. It does nothing but obfuscate the issue at hand with needless details. You know damn well I understand the issue enough to debate whether racial profiling is worth the inequality to those it targets

 

This is an easy argument to make when you're not part of the targeted class.

 

or whether we should eschew the gains in crime-fighting effectiveness.

 

[citation needed]

 

S-A-F is akin to hand-smashing precisely because it's so dumb, pointless and harmful.

[iamshack]

No, you talk specifically about stop-and-frisk and TNC's article for multiple posts, even going as far as saying he shouldn't write his article until he pretends to be a cop for a few months. You made an irrelevant general whine about "where are the solutions?!!" in response to a specific article; don't try to pretend I'm the one trying to change the topic.

 

It's not "pointless specifics" to point out that your response to the article I posted are 1) wrong factually (liberals and the left offer plenty of solutions) 2) wrong logically (you don't need alternatives to offer criticisms of the status quo) and 3) irrelevant (your criticisms about political will and democrats have exactly zero relevance to the NYPD's stop-and-frisk policy). If you want to have a discussion about something completely irrelevant to the article I posted, have at it, but don't try to pretend that you weren't directly criticizing the article and the topic it addressed.

I never said anything specific about the article or TNC, because I only read the excerpts you provided and I don't know who this mythical TNC even is. What I did comment on was the Cohen article. The only reference I made to the TNC article was to point out all the fancy language used to complain about the current state of affairs, while meanwhile offering nothing of any substance as to how to actually improve the current system.

 

If folks really want to create change, we need to eventually step up and do...you say I made an "irrelevant general whine"? This is the mainstay of the articles you typically post in this forum. Filled with fancy arguments and 12 letter words that none other than the intellectual elite even understand.

 

Yes, that is what will save us all...

[iamshack]

This is an easy argument to make when you're not part of the targeted class.

 

 

 

[citation needed]

 

S-A-F is akin to hand-smashing precisely because it's so dumb, pointless and harmful.

Believe it or not, SS, I have been part of this type of profiling.

 

I was actually arrested and jailed for it in New Orleans. But because I am not black, I have no idea what it is like to be profiled by a cop, right?

[iamshack]

Not trying to put myself into this particular argument, but "concern trolling" has a specific meaning to it and intent behind it.

 

When Rush Limbaugh brings up Chicago's crime rate on his show, he has no intention whatsoever of actually suggesting anything to help, he only brings it up as a means to stifle a topic of debate he doesn't like.

 

Another example (one that I do sometimes) is a liberal talking about how Republicans shouldn't elect someone like Sanford because it undermines their "family values" platform (when in reality, they don't give a s*** and actually get off on that kind of flagrant hypocrisy).

Well, I don't think I am "concern trolling" then.

 

It is altogether different to suggest there needs to be an emphasis placed on getting off the sideline and taking action rather than writing fancy articles in the Atlantic Monthly that only your other friends that write in the Atlantic Monthly understand.

 

And if you don't have the energy to actually do something about it, then maybe you're a bit of a hypocrite for spending so much time crying foul about it.

[lostfan]

Well, I don't think I am "concern trolling" then.

 

It is altogether different to suggest there needs to be an emphasis placed on getting off the sideline and taking action rather than writing fancy articles in the Atlantic Monthly that only your other friends that write in the Atlantic Monthly understand.

 

And if you don't have the energy to actually do something about it, then maybe you're a bit of a hypocrite for spending so much time crying foul about it.

Ok with all due respect this makes no sense at all. Ta-Nehisi Coates is a writer for the Athantic Monthly (or senior editor, something like that). What's he supposed to do, NOT write for the Atlantic Monthly? You just admitted you don't even know who he is, how do you know what other action he takes in addition to writing articles, i.e., doing his job?

[iamshack]

Ok with all due respect this makes no sense at all. Ta-Nehisi Coates is a writer for the Athantic Monthly (or senior editor, something like that). What's he supposed to do, NOT write for the Atlantic Monthly? You just admitted you don't even know who he is, how do you know what other action he takes in addition to writing articles, i.e., doing his job?

My most sincere apologies to TNC and all his fans.

 

The point I am trying to make is that there needs to be more action taken and less pontificating. There are too many commentators on the left who think they know everything and express as much in constant television appearances and in columns for various "intellectual" publications.

 

I understand there is a need for there to be intellectual debate, and I appreciate that. But there is often a level of pompousness in these writings that really bothers me. I would like to see these same folks do a ride along in some of these inner-city neighborhoods and then lecture the officer on how he is profiling...I think there is a disconnect between many of these commentators and those in the real world trying to deal with some of these issues, and I find it a bit unfair to sit up on your pulpit and criticize others, when let's face it, many of these intellectuals don't know jack s*** about the realities of what or whom they are criticizing.

 

I'd like to see many of them do less lecturing and more doing, or else just shut the hell up.

[lostfan]

My most sincere apologies to TNC and all his fans.

 

The point I am trying to make is that there needs to be more action taken and less pontificating. There are too many commentators on the left who think they know everything and express as much in constant television appearances and in columns for various "intellectual" publications.

 

I understand there is a need for there to be intellectual debate, and I appreciate that. But there is often a level of pompousness in these writings that really bothers me. I would like to see these same folks do a ride along in some of these inner-city neighborhoods and then lecture the officer on how he is profiling...I think there is a disconnect between many of these commentators and those in the real world trying to deal with some of these issues, and I find it a bit unfair to sit up on your pulpit and criticize others, when let's face it, many of these intellectuals don't know jack s*** about the realities of what or whom they are criticizing.

 

I'd like to see many of them do less lecturing and more doing, or else just shut the hell up.

That's politics in America, man

[southsider2k5]

This is an easy argument to make when you're not part of the targeted class.

 

 

 

[citation needed]

 

S-A-F is akin to hand-smashing precisely because it's so dumb, pointless and harmful.

 

So is ranting about this case on Soxtalk's filibuster...

[iamshack]

That's politics in America, man

Which is why I stay out of it for the most part...but sometimes it just gets tiring...I've found that most of the times I thought there was an answer to a problem of which I didn't have much experience with, it became clear that the answers weren't as obvious as my experience level with that problem increased. With age, I think most people would generally agree that things aren't as simple or easy as one might think most of the time, and that there actually were smarter people that came before you and noticed these same things you did....it's why many people begin on the left and slowly drift to the right as they age.

[StrangeSox]

So is ranting about this case on Soxtalk's filibuster...

When have I ever said that arguing on message boards is anything but entirely pointless?

[StrangeSox]

I never said anything specific about the article or TNC, because I only read the excerpts you provided and I don't know who this mythical TNC even is. What I did comment on was the Cohen article. The only reference I made to the TNC article was to point out all the fancy language used to complain about the current state of affairs, while meanwhile offering nothing of any substance as to how to actually improve the current system.

 

See, here's the thing. Ending S-A-F right now, simply doing that, is improving the current system. That's what you keep ignoring.

 

TNC has a blog at the Atlantic. It has an extensive archive. He has written tens of thousands of words there. He's also had editorials in places like the NYT. You seem to be implying that every article he writes needs to contain a detailed counterproposal for whatever policy his criticizing. That's just silly and you know it.

 

You're a well-educated lawyer. You have several years of schooling on me. What words in that TNC article don't you understand?

[StrangeSox]

I would like to see these same folks do a ride along in some of these inner-city neighborhoods and then lecture the officer on how he is profiling...I think there is a disconnect between many of these commentators and those in the real world trying to deal with some of these issues,

 

TNC grew up in a working-class family in Baltimore, MD.

[Jake]

It seems pretty simple. End SAF and quit punishing large groups of people for sins of a few people. It's inefficient and even if it did make some dent in crime (as SS pointed out, it doesn't appear to even do this), it wouldn't be worth the costs anyway. The problem of crime isn't solved by simply removing SAF and doing nothing else, but the overall situation is improved by just ending SAF. As far as political will goes, I tend to think that SAF either is very unpopular with people who live in cities or it can certainly become unpopular with a little bit of effort.

[StrangeSox]

Which is why I stay out of it for the most part...but sometimes it just gets tiring...I've found that most of the times I thought there was an answer to a problem of which I didn't have much experience with, it became clear that the answers weren't as obvious as my experience level with that problem increased. With age, I think most people would generally agree that things aren't as simple or easy as one might think most of the time, and that there actually were smarter people that came before you and noticed these same things you did....it's why many people begin on the left and slowly drift to the right as they age.

 

This is a boring cliche that appeals to tradition in support of the status quo, allowing the person to never actually have to put forth a defense of the policy or ideology in question.

 

If you want to criticize TNC or his article for being elitist, too intellectual, or naive, go ahead. Make an argument. Point out what he's missing, why he's wrong, why Cohen's right. So far you've said essentially nothing other than "while how would he solve crime?!"

Edited July 22, 2013 by StrangeSox

[southsider2k5]

When have I ever said that arguing on message boards is anything but entirely pointless?

 

[TakesawayStrangeSoxhammer]

[iamshack]

This is a boring cliche that appeals to tradition in support of the status quo, allowing the person to never actually have to put forth a defense of the policy or ideology in question.

 

If you want to criticize TNC or his article for being elitist, too intellectual, or naive, go ahead. Make an argument. Point out what he's missing, why he's wrong, why Cohen's right. So far you've said essentially nothing other than "while how would he solve crime?!"

I made an argument in my second or third post on the topic, which was conveniently ignored.

 

I'm confused here, because I've made a general statement here saying that these commentators need to do more and whine less. You've now accused me both of specifically attacking this article while also not specifically attacking this article and the author.

 

I've tried to point out several times now that my ire isn't necessarily directed at this particular article, author, or topic, but rather, this type of journalism or commentating.

 

Why should I be compelled now to make an argument about this particular author, article, or topic?

[EvilMonkey]

I made an argument in my second or third post on the topic, which was conveniently ignored.

 

I'm confused here, because I've made a general statement here saying that these commentators need to do more and whine less. You've now accused me both of specifically attacking this article while also not specifically attacking this article and the author.

 

I've tried to point out several times now that my ire isn't necessarily directed at this particular article, author, or topic, but rather, this type of journalism or commentating.

 

Why should I be compelled now to make an argument about this particular author, article, or topic?

Because YOU sir are not a member of the aggrieved class, not have you admitted your white guilt and renounced your white privilege, so your opinion means nothing unless you can back it up with facts that answer questions not even originally asked due to constantly moving goal posts and race card playing. (make all that text half green)

[iamshack]

It seems pretty simple. End SAF and quit punishing large groups of people for sins of a few people. It's inefficient and even if it did make some dent in crime (as SS pointed out, it doesn't appear to even do this), it wouldn't be worth the costs anyway. The problem of crime isn't solved by simply removing SAF and doing nothing else, but the overall situation is improved by just ending SAF. As far as political will goes, I tend to think that SAF either is very unpopular with people who live in cities or it can certainly become unpopular with a little bit of effort.

Is it that simple? If it was so simple, do you think the Mayor of NY would be convinced that this program is working for NYC?

 

We have a massive issue with the gun culture in this country. In major cities, we often have several murders a weekend which are being carried out with illegally-obtained guns. We have a problem with gangs and drugs as well, which only proliferates the use of these illegally-obtained guns.

 

I really don't think there is a disproportionate amount of racist people in the law enforcement industry and I really don't think our municipal and state leaders want to put in place racist programs. The reality is we have many disadvantaged minorities that turn to crime because the honest path is either too harrowing or perhaps even nearly impossible and so getting involved in criminal activities is the only reasonable method of survival they foresee. Then you have a police force and a law enforcement industry that is made up of human beings that gets constantly exposed to the reality of seeing many of these same minorities as the offenders. They get conditioned to expecting others that might exhibit some of these same characteristics or behaviors to be offenders as well. This conditioning manifests itself in profiling.

 

It isn't fair and it isn't right, but honestly, I am not sure what the alternative is.

 

What do you guys think?

[Jenksismyhero]

Because YOU sir are not a member of the aggrieved class, not have you admitted your white guilt and renounced your white privilege, so your opinion means nothing unless you can back it up with facts that answer questions not even originally asked due to constantly moving goal posts and race card playing. (make all that text half green)

 

Yeah I agree. Shack, just admit you're a member of the privileged white majority (i.e., a filthy racist). Then we can have a REAL discussion about race in America and how it's all the GOP's fault.

[iamshack]

Yeah I agree. Shack, just admit you're a member of the privileged white majority (i.e., a filthy racist). Then we can have a REAL discussion about race in America and how it's all the GOP's fault.

 

Honestly, talk to almost any cop in a metro area and they will tell you how difficult a spot you put them in by throwing all this profiling crap on them.

 

One of my fiancee's bridesmaids is married to an African American police officer here in Las Vegas (yes, to prove I am not a racist, I am going to throw out the "I have a black friend!" story) and he has told us time and time again how he started out thinking he was never going to profile anyone and he would always be fair, etc., only to realize how incredibly naive he was. That after being exposed to this crap day-in and day-out, it just becomes second nature to look at certain people a certain way, and he thinks it has actually saved his own life several times.

 

I know that is just anecdotal evidence, but I have heard the same story time and again from police officers.

[iamshack]

Post that again, SS...I'd like to respond.

[StrangeSox]

Is it that simple? If it was so simple, do you think the Mayor of NY would be convinced that this program is working for NYC?

 

There is no evidence that racial profiling is actually effective in reducing crime and plenty of evidence that it leads to negative outcomes for the profiled communities, both from the official profilers and from society at large. You get at this below, that it marginalizes these communities and perpetuates the problems.

 

We have a massive issue with the gun culture in this country. In major cities, we often have several murders a weekend which are being carried out with illegally-obtained guns. We have a problem with gangs and drugs as well, which only proliferates the use of these illegally-obtained guns.

 

I really don't think there is a disproportionate amount of racist people in the law enforcement industry and I really don't think our municipal and state leaders want to put in place racist programs. The reality is we have many disadvantaged minorities that turn to crime because the honest path is either too harrowing or perhaps even nearly impossible and so getting involved in criminal activities is the only reasonable method of survival they foresee. Then you have a police force and a law enforcement industry that is made up of human beings that gets constantly exposed to the reality of seeing many of these same minorities as the offenders. They get conditioned to expecting others that might exhibit some of these same characteristics or behaviors to be offenders as well. This conditioning manifests itself in profiling.

 

It isn't fair and it isn't right, but honestly, I am not sure what the alternative is.

 

What do you guys think?

 

I think this is a reasonable comment. I think that, as you noted, the reality is that poverty is a vicious cycle that leads to more poverty and more violence. This is multiplied when we have public policy that results in systemic racism, as S-A-F does, further marginalizing people.

 

The alternative is to stamp out these policies where we see them, stop marginalizing communities, and work to end poverty. S-A-F will never do anything but send more black men to jail or the grave and harass countless others. That will only make things worse in the long run, not better.

[StrangeSox]

Post that again, SS...I'd like to respond.

 

I deleted it and couldn't reconstruct it. I thought it'd be a better conversation to respond to your other post.

[Jenksismyhero]

http://abcnews.go.com/US/george-zimmerman-...new?id=19735432

 

George Zimmerman, who has been in hiding since he was acquitted of murder in the death of Trayvon Martin, emerged to help rescue a family who was trapped in an overturned vehicle, police said today.

 

Zimmerman was one of two men who came to the aid of a family of four -- two parents and two children -- trapped inside a blue Ford Explorer SUV that had rolled over after traveling off the highway in Sanford, Fla. at approximately 5:45 p.m. Thursday, the Seminole County Sheriff's Office said in a statement.

 

The crash occurred at the intersection of I-4 and route Route 46, police said. The crash site is less than a mile from where Zimmerman shot Martin.

 

By the time police arrived, two people - including Zimmerman - had already helped the family get out of the overturned car, the sheriff's office said. No one was reported to be injured.

 

Zimmerman was not a witness to the crash and left after speaking with the deputy, police said.

[iamshack]

There is no evidence that racial profiling is actually effective in reducing crime and plenty of evidence that it leads to negative outcomes for the profiled communities, both from the official profilers and from society at large. You get at this below, that it marginalizes these communities and perpetuates the problems.

 

 

 

I think this is a reasonable comment. I think that, as you noted, the reality is that poverty is a vicious cycle that leads to more poverty and more violence. This is multiplied when we have public policy that results in systemic racism, as S-A-F does, further marginalizing people.

 

The alternative is to stamp out these policies where we see them, stop marginalizing communities, and work to end poverty. S-A-F will never do anything but send more black men to jail or the grave and harass countless others. That will only make things worse in the long run, not better.

What exactly would be evidence, in your mind, that racial profiling does reduce crime?

 

I agree with you generally about the stopping of marginalization, but you are not facing the actual problem in the first place. We do have all this gun violence. We do have a disproportionate amount of minorities of the male gender committing violent crimes. We do have a gang and drug and gun culture in our ghettos. How does that get solved in the meantime? How do our police officers police those neighborhoods? I would guess that your solution would be to attack this problem at it's root, by trying to improve the situation of those in poverty before they have to make the decision between the straight and narrow and not having food to eat, or a life of crime and possibly becoming rich...but what do we do in the meantime? What do we have our law enforcement folks do?